projects . gallery . team project . forum . search . members . my space

/forum

User Message
01-12-2007
111 post(s)
But what IS a project? I mean does a Salgado project follow the same flow and rules as a Parr project? And who will define it? Are any of us compeetent enough? Who here is an expert on what a project should be? Infact, does even a single photographer follow the same concept for projects? I see very little similarity between DA Harvey's Cuba project and his latest Hip Hop project. We are here to learn as this is virgin territory for all of us. What you SHOULD be encouraging more than this is to get users to actively comment on projects, as the projects are building and as the projects are done. It is with time and input that we will forge a sort of communal consensus on what a story is. Not through guidelines imposed from above.
02-12-2007
111 post(s)
I didny jump on Gal. I just see the paradox here: if no-one here knows about making projects how can anyone set down rules for what projects are?
02-12-2007
290 post(s)
ok i would like to reply here, sorry it would be more easy for me to reply in french. i dont really understand what wrong with the project. for me its very simple and some of you try to make it to complicate. every member have 5 projects and when ne of your project have 10 or more pics u can have a new one. a project is like a folder, u can use the project in many way. what is complicate here ? and why always compare Holik to some other site. seems some of you need strict rules ? sorry its now 8 am in bkk and i get a bit mad to read this. i dont understand why, and what is complicate for you here. about some message i have read, when you compare Holik with other site. do you see any family pictures here ? and baby picture from Xmas ? we try to make a selection from our member and we will always go in this way WE WILL NEVER BE LIKE FLICKR or other images bank. edited by flydragon on 02/12/2007 edited by flydragon on 02/12/2007
02-12-2007
180 post(s)
Good morning to you, Fly! Thanks for jumping in hard - perhaps we try too hard to be democratic;o) Perso, je m'en fous un peu des regles (I don't really care too much about rules) I'm just afraid of the Last Judgement ;o))) OUCH! Here is a possibe solution to this whole thing: why don't the more experienced project guys write a few essays in one of the threads for everyone's benefit. "How I make transitions" "STicking to your theme" That way we just learn form each other as we go. Look, projects is a bit of a challenge - I'm struggling with it but you know what? I'm grateful for the opportunity, truly grateful. This is a very fine site, Simon, well conceived, flexible, elegant, and I know I can speak for all (well,p retty much) when I say that we are all very glad to be here Have a great day!
02-12-2007
142 post(s)
[quote=Furachan]Here is a possibe solution to this whole thing: why don't the more experienced project guys write a few essays in one of the threads for everyone's benefit. "How I make transitions" "STicking to your theme" That way we just learn form each other as we go. [/quote] The problem is that I don't see many (any) experienced project guy in here... As I once stated somewhere, we're in the fifth dimension (tee deedee deedee... hope we're not stuck in it). Probably learning comes from trying and interaction : throwing a collection in, removing some pics, throwing in some more photos, etc. You know when I feel demoralized, Francis? when I look at [url=http://www.narayanmahon.com]Narayan's work[/url] ...Jeeze, this guy has made huuuuge steps from the time he entered that ole lil' site.
02-12-2007
180 post(s)
To Luko: Yes, Narayan has taken off like a rocket - I praised his remarkable achievements in one of my last "pieces" at the other place. So why not bring him into our fold - great resource - serious lensman - nice guy. I'll go back to something I thought about earlier - rather than give Simon the impression that we are disgruntled or worried beyond recall (which I assuredly am not) why not simply put together a proposal for a more practical FAQ regarding projects. We can do this as a cooperative and then submit it to "Postmaster" for review. I know as well if not better than anyone here how HARD it is to tell an extended story. Two difficulties right off the bat: I shot the current project over two very busy nights, dodging Japanese crowds and groups of Yakuza the whole time while at the same time watching our for Mrs F and her 80+ yr old dad! When you come home and look at your slides - the story...is not obvious (all you have are some more or less outstanding shots and your memories ;o). Another is the very tricky "transitional" shots which are almost by definition more "boring" than the "arias", as you so well noted earlier. Like Simon though, I am not sure that "rules# would cover this. I see the need for "oointers", "hints", a kind of Project 101 seminar online. Everyone who has had some success already can help: the Pup, Jinju with his Harvey. Magnum connection. Hell - here's a thought: let's ask David Alan Harvey to look in on us and proffer some suggestions - he is an extremely generous man - I should think he would respond - he did to me in the past. I guess I'm just reluctant to "accabler" Simon with teh notion that we're "unhappy, dissatisfied, grumbling", you know. Let's work this out among ourselves in a smart, helpful manner. We have lots of resources here And then there is always Narayan- that guy owes me Big Time - taught him everything he knows about colour..;o))) (sorry Narayan!) edited by Furachan on 02/12/2007
03-12-2007
46 post(s)
I would like to express my thoughts on this very important subject. After all, "projects" are the main difference between this site and the others that populate the net. But, what I would like to discuss is what is really a project for each one of you. Simon sees it like a folder, a container for a group of photos that have some connection between them. Gal, Luko and others focus on the literary part and see projects as romances/novels/essays, collection of photos that tell a story. For me, a project is a collection of photos that are bounded through a common feature. And that feature can be a lot of things: the way you edit them, the place where we shot them, a common subject, a common view, a narrative story, etc... I think we are always focusing on stories. But why a project has to tell a story? Why it has to have a narrative pace? If I want to present a project made by mountain landscapes, why can't I do it without any narrative concerns...? First, we have to define what a project is and then you can set the guidelines to help people follow the rules. I do agree with Gal that guidelines enforcement is crucial for mantaining the quality of the site. Without them, this will grow messily and people will start leaving easily. To be honest, I like the current model and I don't think that projects are being wrongly interpreted. The problem is that every member has its own perception about what a project really is. Luis
07-12-2007
89 post(s)
I think Gal has been misunderstood for the most part. Simon, you say this site won't be like pbase, flicker or another site, however IMO if you don't create a certain structure where members will be able to show their creativity within it's frame, this site will became like pbase, perhaps a bit higher level, but still. Pbase is a collection of pictures within a gallery, if you want photoholik to be something else than it has to operate differently, I personally don't see much it different at this time, other than the number of members is much smaller, it's free, limit to posting, and you don't see family snapshots, apart from that this is very pbase like. Peter
08-12-2007
180 post(s)
Peter, please don't take this the wrong way buddy, but how about contributing a Project to this site rather than commenting "from the outside" as it were. All I'm saying is some of us are discovering first hand the challenges of project work, I'm thinking of Jinju for example and myself, and ironically you will find that we are among the least critical of the current setup. I don't want to get all emotional and teary-eyed ;o) but I waited more than a year for this site to start up, corresponding with Simon the whole time, I couldn't wait for it to start, and I was thrilled and honored to be invited. From a practical standpoint, day-to-day, I think it's going pretty well. My first attempt was a mess and I got my ass handed to me in the critique, but I picked myself up from the floor and I've got a better sense of how a project should work now. I urge you to jump in the water and let us take a look at how you would organize a project. I'm sure it would be inspiring based on what I've seen of your work over the years. Something to think about...
08-12-2007
111 post(s)
Im really wandering where you guys are seeing all the PBase sort of stuff. What Ive seen here are people trying to do stories. I really dont know where all this complaining is coming from, to be honest Peter. This is all new to us and we are doing our best and if we fail, then we have others to tell us and then as Francis we pick ourselves up and go back to the drawing board and try to create a narrative the next time. Im not saying you dont have the right to your opinion but as I see it you have nothing invested in this site...no photos, no projects... why do you care so much so that you would want to throw some arbitrary rules and confinements on what should be a site that allows us all to explore the boundries of what a story is? readng TE's forum someone got it right: This site should allow sokeone, who if they want, to create a project on a pineapple in their kitchen. If its good, we will like it, if it isnt it will get torn to shreds. THATS the best way to do it. Different photographers create very different projects and yes, I KNOW there are no Salgados here, thanks Gal for pointing out the obvious to me, but JUST TO USE A KNOWN NAME TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE, a project by Salgado will be different from one by Parr, Pellegrin, Nachtway, Harvey or Parr. So who will come up with these rules? Is anyone here qualified to do so? Who knows the ins and outs of creating narratives and projects? Anybody? Yeah, I didnt think so. You are asking the blind to lead the blind. And Peter, why havent you uploaded anything yet? Instead of trying to force some rules on us, why not encourage people to actually comment on work so that we can have a running discussion going on a series as it forms? The most useful thing for me has been Francis' nearly daily input on some of my stories and the back and forth discussion which has been very useful in helping me edit the stories so far. THATS useful Bitching on the forum does nobody any use.
08-12-2007
89 post(s)
hmm, am puzzled a bit by the replies from both of you. Didn't know that the current luck of contribution from me wipes out the ability to offer suggestions (or bitching as you put it). I have explained before why currently I am not able to contribute and was hopefull it will change in the near future. Rafal, you are very familiar with the way I contribute, I don't upload much, don't write that often, but when I do I put alot of effort or time into it, nothing has changed since except I have less time and this is more of a challenge than writing something about a single photo. It's pretty obvious that right now there are two trains of thoughts here or groups, one very content with the current state, the other seeing issues as the site grows, I simply voiced my opinion and joint the second group. So both of you please tell me, do I have to post ten photos or write 4 comments before I write anything else in the forum? I admit I am not familiar with the rules here, and if this is one of them I will be happy to oblige, although with reactions like yours after a simply comment from me, looks like this is quickly becaming a very hostile place. Peter
08-12-2007
89 post(s)
should have said " both of you are familiar with the way I contribute" instead of just Rafal, didn't recognise you Francis since you have changed your nickname.
09-12-2007
180 post(s)
Hey Peter, I meant no offense, I was just gently goading you into uploading. Get in the water, feel the temperature from the inside, and then see what you think about the rules or lack thereof. Kind of makes sense, don't it? I know you are a very careful and scrupulous contributor. All the better. Photoholik should fit you like a glove. Looking forward to your luminous contributions my friend. Francis
10-12-2007
111 post(s)
I too would like to see you upload things. I know your excuses Peter but really, you should have none. Go and shoot with a puirpose and upload a series. We can either talk or do, and even if you fail, its better to do than just talk, wouldnt you agree? As far as the rules of what projects should be, the less rules the better. Nobody here, hell, not even anyone in Magnum could give you definite, hard rules about what a project is. It all depends on so many things, theres just no way to do it. The best way is to let the community shape the direction, but that involves participation in posting and commenting.
10-12-2007
180 post(s)
Peter, I'm afraid we've gotten off on the wrong foot here. truly sorry if all this does is make you want to question your own participation. You proceed a your own pace, buddy, there is absolutely no rush, okay? As for the central issue here, which is "guidelines" for projects, I'm going to take the bit by the teeth and propose some (as a rough draft) which I hope other members will improve upon, howzat? All this bickering and name calling is only going to drive you away, man, and no one, but no one, wants that. So apologies for a wrong start here and please voice your misgivings and hopes freely, partner. All the best, Francis
10-12-2007
180 post(s)
Ga, thank you for the vote of confidence. here goes... In order to break the current deadlock which is actually keeping some excellent members at bay… I am stepping forward with a proposal for an extended FAQ that spells out more fully what projects entail. NOTE TO SIMON AND ADMIN: This is a fantastic site and it will only get better with time. I feel honored to have been invited. I am in no way criticizing the structure which I find personally inviting and free. My intention here (if you will forgive me) is just to move beyond this malaise, this complaining about a perceived “lack” of something. It is my hope that by getting the ball rolling, we can fine tune this core aspect of the site together as a community and really get going. For the moment all we have on “projects” is this short statement: What is a project? The underlying idea of the creation of Photoholik is to present comprehensive photographic projects, that is to say mini illustrated reports. It is only within these projects that I will be able to upload my photos, thus allowing me to group them and tell a story. An isolated photo may not be inspiring but will take its full meaning within a more global context. That is why it is important to bear in mind this notion of a global project. For that matter, Photoholik invite you to make it clear when you post the very last photo of a project, so that all members know your project is now complete. COMMENT: This is more of a brief intro really. Since almost all of us come from a “one-picture-at-a-time” background I think some elaboration might be helpful. With your kind indulgence, here is my proposed text: What is a project 1. First of all it is NOT a loose series of disconnected shots. 2. It is NOT a collection of your best “Hits” from before. 3. It IS a group of photos united around a stated “theme”. 4. In a project each picture should reinforce and develop the Theme. 5. Transitional photos (which might not be stunning on their own) will play a key role in carrying the story onward, if your project is linear. 6. There are two basic kinds of projects: narrative (or linear) and non-linear. An example of a narrative project is my recently finished “Thousand and One Nights” which tells a story. And example of a non-linear project is my earlier, sadly aborted thing “Vietnam Noir”. What should one look for when evaluating a Project? 1. Narrative logic and sequence if of the narrative type. 2. Thematic integrity and “feel” for both types. 3. Consistency of tones and treatment if non-linear is a must. 4. Emotional impact – is the photographer just showing off some “chops” or is he genuinely engaging with his theme in a resonant way? 5. Sustained technical achievement – a Pro-level project is a tightly woven weave where every link is important. 6. Originality – is this just a copycat project or is there some element of surprise, shock, amazement? Finally I suggest that everyone beginning a new project should outline very clearly what kind of project it is going to be and what viewers can expect. Here is a fictional example: “This project is a narrative based on a corporate party that took place one cold night in March high above Tokyo’s Ginza. Shot sequentially using available light, the series will explore the various components that make up a Japanese corporate event: the endless toasts, the bad public speaking, the increasing drunkenness, the “servants” on the sidelines looking in. The final hand clapping at the end. I will use a combination of wideangle shots and dreamy wide open 50mm shots to alternate intimacy and distance. To further give the project unity I have used the same workflow throughout with regards to coloring in particular – a slight bias toward yellow. The tone is a combination of documentary and satire” There. Now it is up to you, my friends to pitch in and improve on this very rough attempt. Let the FUN begin…! Francis
10-12-2007
46 post(s)
There are important issues here. Mainly the introduction of project categories. That linear/non-linear categorization is a feature I would like to see implemented here. Like I always told, not every project needs to tell a story... So, if projects are really the core of PH why not giving the ability to categorize and add more characteristic elements to the project? I mean, you can select the theme and keywords when we upload a picture, but we can't do this when we create a project. Projects just have a note and a name. I think we can extend this. Also, I would like to see an extended version of the rating system. For me, I would happily live without photo ratings and extend the actual 2 level battery into a more meaningful and typified type of rating. Francis stated 6 points that we need to be aware while evaluating a project. Why can't we start from here and present that in a graphical way to rate the project (keeping the crucial ability to write a text to go with it)? Another thing I want to say - after reading Francis' "new" introduction to projects - is that we have to remember that this site isn't only for us. You say that [i]almost all of us come from a “one-picture-at-a-time”[/i], but who knows who are going to be the future members? There can be guys that never participated in any other community before... l.
10-12-2007
123 post(s)
I haven't released any photo yet, may I share some thoughts as well ? "Project" seems to be a key value of this community & site ... Without project I personally don't see any added value wrt other sites (maybe meeting nice & talented people here) and like G. Clooney I will ask myself "What else?". Working photography within a project scope is challenging and structuring, this would a natural step imho for any photog wishing to improve in this area and this is what I would be looking for: what makes it specific ? how I can improve my photog in sharing my projects in this site. These are my questions. Personally I would be bored to see the same photos posted somewhere else (I don't know if Gal stated this) without adding value to the site in making the effort to work out real photo projects ... and not use the site as another photo repository ... A project is challenging (nobody has a clear understanding of what it means) ... but I think we should not be so demanding in short term but rather encourage it and target real projects in the future. Also one must understand, this is a new site, still looking for its positioning ... let's provide & accept feedbacks from all to help the creators of this site to make it a better place. My 2 cents. Alain - edited by ALSOM on 10/12/2007 edited by ALSOM on 10/12/2007 edited by ALSOM on 10/12/2007
10-12-2007
123 post(s)
Francis, I like your definition of a project ... good starting point.
10-12-2007
180 post(s)
Thank you Luis, thank you Alain. Please understand my friends, there are perhaps two distinct types of members here - those who go headlong into a thing with gut instinct and what have you, people like me for instance who shoot first and look for rules later. But I also realize that there are many others who might indeed want more in depth definitions for a project. Lines of demarcation if you will. And since there seemed to be a deadlock, which was made worse by some intemperate things I said to peter well, I thought the least I could do was come up with a starter, a "yeast" to get things moving so ALL of us can feel equally comfortable along this adventure. With this rough draft as a base I'm sure others can improve on it until we have a bright, shining thing we can all live with.