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19-11-2007
180 post(s)
Let’s face it, all of us (more or less) have come over from “that other site”, you know the one, the one that begins with the letter “T”;o) Some of us cut our teeth on that site, some of us grew frustrated, some disillusioned, some even have the distinction of having been summarily EXPELLED from that site (you know who you are…) And so here we are at last, my friends, street shooters and people shooters, once an endangered species on Planet T, all of a sudden welcome in a home of our own. And how do we behave now that we are “at home” for the first time? Well that’s what I’d like to look at a bit more closely. A while back Jinju started a potentially VERY important thread entitled: “The goal of this place” Unfortunately the discussion that followed soon went off the rails somewhat, including a lot of focus on the dreaded NUKE capability. I would like to kickstart that discussion again by being very specific this time, in such a way that no one can be left in doubt as to what’s at stake. 1. Where is Luko? Surely it must have crossed your mind that our good friend has not uploaded once yet nor has he left any comments. Could it be that he perhaps feels a certain malaise, a disagreeable sense of deja-vu? Let’s ask him. The reason this troubles me personally is that he has proven himself time and time again to be a person of unimpeachable ethics, first class intellect, and he’s not a bad shooter either ;o) So I miss him on this site, his absence troubles me, and I think it might bother you too. 2. As we read comments going back and forth do you not see something familiar, my friends? The old “trading” rearing its ugly head. I give X a half point, BANG he turns around and gives me one too, the same day… Coincidence? Who knows? 3. Are we genuinely judging the pictures in the CONTEXT of a series and a theme? Or are we simply judging them just like we did in the old T days, as individual pics that we sometimes like more than others? 4. How do we genuinely activate the idea of themes when the first 2 or 3 uploads are bound to be seen as individual efforts? Could we not be allowed to upload, say, 4 pics at once to form the nucleus of a series, but that would be all we are allowed to upload that week? Just an idea – think about it? 5. How many themes should we realistically allow to float around simultaneously. Let me suggest two as the absolute maximum. 6. And yes, what is this NUKE all about? Is it a “nuclear deterrent”? Come on, who will push the button first. Someone almost threatened to NUKE one of my pics and I almost wished he had because I’m not averse to deleting the odd shot ;o) But seriously we are all here because, let’s face it, we proved ourselves in that other world – we are all competent+ photogs with personal visions and a recognizable stamp, and we shoot people in our various ways. Why would we need to NUKE when we have already selected ourselves based on merit??? Will someone answer that please. Of course if an entire series is deemed by many to be inappropriate and right off course, we could persuade someone to dump it. CONCLUSION: Here’s the thing. Our criterion ought to be to upload only stuff that will make this site SHINE, seen from the outside, that will give lurkers a “Wow!” feeling. Anything less than that we should self-censure before uploading, just snuff it out. Hence no need for NUKING. I love the idea of this sight. I am profoundly grateful to Simon and the other founders for inviting me. The potential of this thing is tremendous. But let’s not backslide into a smaller, more exclusive version of the very thing we are escaping. I now look forward to a spirited and earnest debate, Francis edited by Furachan on 19/11/2007
19-11-2007
25 post(s)
Hey, Thanks for starting this thread. I was about to write few things. Yes, we & everybody here knows that this is BETA version & still we make few changes ( Sorry development team!!!!) but really we need to re-think on few things. - 1 Post per day..is too much ..we may redefine the things saying 4 Post/Week & let that be at one time or over week. ( Why should we follow other site) - 5 Projects at a time.. See we can reduce the scope and make it 2..I am finding difficult to comment even single series. as there are so many project running together & it is hard to understand the story for even single project. let everybody share their view to certain project...( I am slow in understanding) See, There are Pro Photographers and are capable to run even much more project together. but issue is not how much one can handle project at a time but really how better we can tell people the story. One can able to tell 5 stories at a time or even more but let viewer should get chance to pick with the same speed. Why not to give privilege to add one more story after some will complete 25 projects. just idea..( Again sorry developer. more the function, More the bugs..more tough time for you) - Critics should be healthy....OK..add couple of things to critics. Like Color, Composition, theme, & Free critic etc..Critic should pass all those criteria. It will not help anybody & Million other viewer going to watch this. We should be more serious for commentng - NUKE...No nuke please..Why someone want NUKE..coz everybody is good enough to understand what He/She is uploading.. & keep nuke..if Nuke is pressed it should be pressed only by owner..& it will delete complete project & he cannot upload that project again. unless justifying proper reason. Points..No points but still half battery or full battery. let do not show it to other but only to owner so he will understand what everybody thinks about his picture. else possibility that some else who is BETTER in photography has rated half battery so let me press the same is at timea attitude. 20 Photos...It sounds we are giving unnecessary scope to upload repetitive photos or unnecessary photos...though owner always feel it is necessary. Let it be upto 8-10....Let people shoot quality photos than just running for quantity. We make site more challenging & attractive but keeping it simple. This is few things I am just feeling looking & comparing it with some other sites.. We should not walk on the same path... This is just a personal opinion..May be My view is wrong..;)
19-11-2007
180 post(s)
6. I beg you to stop immediately the type of paranoiac personal suggestions you're so fond of. If you had read my comment properly, you'd be perfectly aware that I didn't [b]threaten[/b] you with a nuke. I simply said I wouldn't give you one [b]because[/b] I didn't want to lose my comment (a deletion of the photograph would mean a deletion of the comment within). In fact, you can consider it as a a selfish attitude from me. As I've written elsewhere, I think severe critics are often a source of information, hence don't think it would be a good idea to delete photographs on the basis of nukes. Besides, these individual appreciations on images shouldn't keep us away from the main purpose of analizing the project as a whole. I was not being paranoid (THIS time anyway, ha ha!), Gal - in fact I agree wholeheartedly with what you say here. I have self-NUKED myself so many times it's not even funny. As you can see I am making an effort here ;o) Yes, you did provide a lot of suggestions and answers to Jinju's initial query. My concern was that "overall" the discussion had kind of lost its way and wanted to revive it. As for Luko, I should think we are all waiting for him to show up for good, and I am personally concerned by his obvious "reserve". I read that as a bad sign. Surely we can all contribute to a vibrant, challenging community that he would feel comfortable contributing to, and I cannot be the only one who wants him to come on board fully. Thanks, Gal for the clarifications. Best, Francis edited by steph on 03/04/2008
19-11-2007
180 post(s)
Gal: I cannot find any place where Luko states his intentions re: this site. if you look under "users" and then Luko you get nothing, just his name, and since he hasn't uploaded yet, I can't see a fuller profile from him. Can you please tell me how to reach that - I'd certainly like to read it.
19-11-2007
46 post(s)
1. The reply to this question is in his profile, as Gal already mentioned it. You'll have to wait... 2. Well, I always tried to be honest in the "other" side, but we all know that once in a while you have to play its game. I don't expect anyone to do that here and I will not do it for sure. I am expecting real critiques here even knowing that I may be the weakest link here. Let's get serious people. That's the only way we can achieve some purpose... 3. I already shared by thoughts and concerns about this and Simon already explained how it works. Remember that we have the possibility to critique both single pictures and whole projects. You can't really critique a photo in the context of the project without taking the pulse of what the project will be. That's why Luko decided to critique only once the project is completed. It's your choice how you want to do it. I will critique each one as a single and give a final overview once the project is completed. 4. Sincerely, I would like to reduce the daily upload quota. We are just a few right now and I am already feeling I can't keep the pace. And I am about to quit the "other" site... Honestly, unless you spend more than 3 hours a day here you will not be able to comment the pictures you want and then you'll have to start filtering what to critique. And from there to creating a similar behavior to the "other" site is just a quick step. Let's try *not* to do that. 5. For me, one should be enough. There's no point flooding the site with different "threads". Why shouldn't we wait for the completion of one to start the other? I really cannot see an advantage in this. 6. The nuke is a good idea, but it has to be used with great care. I see it as a tool to maintain the quality of the uploads, to get rid of really bad pictures. I saw the "join" page and saw that a portfolio is required to enter the site. That's good. But a way to keep the bad photos out of here is essential. Now, who can perform that authority is a whole different discussion... luis
19-11-2007
46 post(s)
[i]And so here we are at last, my friends, street shooters and people shooters, once an endangered species on Planet T, all of a sudden welcome in a home of our own.[/i] Well, that can be true right now, but that will change when the outside world starts to arrive. I don't see anywhere in the site that this is a place for documentary/people photography only. Or is it? What will happen when the first true landscape project appears? ;) luis
19-11-2007
111 post(s)
Re the trading. I would eliminate anything that comes close to a smiley. That includes the batteries. Keep the nukes, make them secret. Trading is rearing its headf and we need to stop it ASAP. Otherwise it will be TE all over again. I see no use for the batteries when WORDS can say it better anyway. We are from TE and thats a TE BAD habit. Are we free of it? I dont think about Luko's absence. There are several people from TE Id like to see here but Im not taking their absence to mean anything. Are we judging the series? Old habits from TE die hard. Lets give it time. Its a new experiment. I was thinking about a larger upload limit initially but Im against it. Lets keep the uploads at a civilized thread. If you really wanted to do that 4 photo upload I think a new design would be needed. How about instead of showing a new photo uploaded to the site the link should be to the whole series with a "new" icon to show which is the new photo, but the individual photos would be only visible upon entering the project. That way a 4 photo initial upload wouldnt flood the gallery. Im also missing slideshows. I think its a crucial option as only that way can we really show the flow of a project.
20-11-2007
142 post(s)
Bug? I cannot post my full length reply in this thread... part 1 : Ok I wouldn’t like that discussion to focus around me being there or not, who cares or who cares less… I’m afraid we’d miss the point, and like Francis recalled Rafal is the author of the most legitimate question written in this site so far. “[i]What is the goal of this place?” [/i]or most intimately put “where do the members want to go with this site?” (yes, I'm talking to each of you, don't look back). Keeping Francis' points : 1- not the most interesting matter, I don't feel comfortable enough or I don't understand the site enough now to be posting regularly... I have chosen my own guideline that you may read in my intro (Pls note you also have to be silent to shoot big game), although I might find in this discussion a different motivation. On the other hand, you could also ask yourself about Alain or Peter’s absence... (Sid is probably to new in this site) 2- What I’ve seen so far is mostly our old TE cortex at work, judging photo by the thumb “[i]oh I like it, hmmmh.. I don’t[/i]”. Ok Beta testing you say, there’s more than technical beta testing, let’s beta test a general way to USE the site. Some may argue, it's no time for waiting, as a diver I reckon it's sometimes better to stop, think and act, not the other way around or it may be too late 3-Let’s have a look : I think there are 2 or 3 one line comments focusing on the projects vs. 100 or more comments attached to the photos. The projects are not finished yet, you’d claim and you’re right, although I have very seldom read any comment on the photo that refers to its project. Once again, the main issue we ALL agreed on in Trekearth is that it didn’t give any room to long term/short term projects, there you have it, hence use it… besides that, projects need photos of a dimmer shine, but that link one photo to another inside a specific photo show. Perfect example is Simon’s rice paddies called “bouquet de riz”, which earned him only two comments, whereas I think it’s a major photo inside a project, (don’t worry , I am preparing for Simon one or two white elephant bullets as he already posted 10 photos in his project). If we follow the advices written or more precisely the lack of interest no one would ever post such, but rather post similar looking uploads (like I’ve already seen in some projects, but wait… maybe I’m wrong…) . Therefore and given the fact we’re grown up kids when it comes to making a photo (that’s what we can expect, being in this site, don’t we? No more “[i]we’re here to learn photography[/i]” puleeeeeze, I wouldn’t believe anyone…who's gonna teach you anyhow?) For me, the added value is to acquire some know how on how to put up and select a set of photos to make an enjoyable, non boring, photo story, otherwise called a project. This is what I’m waiting for : give me a non biased feedback with the projects! To say it straightforwardly I don’t care much about some opinions given on the photos taken separately, some comments I have read prove it. If you want an array of opinions, there's TE. I am not saying this is THE TRUTH, this is how I feel it right now, please tell me I’m wrong with witty arguments and I will agree with you... edited by Luko on 20/11/2007
20-11-2007
142 post(s)
part 2 : 4-I agree with Francis. It would be good to have a capital of uploads at the start to use them in one day, providing it will prevent afterwards the poster to upload for the equivalent amount of days. For instance I want to post 5 photos today, I won’t be able able to post even one photo for ten days OR give me the way to hide projects and photos until they’re sufficiently completed, then they may be released to the holiks. (or someone gives me an idea on how I’m going to post my own projects). 5-Number of themes. I have no idea about that, 2 might be a minimum suppose you’re working on long term or short term projects, or you want to use different mediums. 6-Nuke. I think this is useless as it is now. I don’t believe in tactical nuke, let’s get strategical and send the B52s over Hanoi, Nuke the whole project! Some projects are not really thought, they’re on the TE theme level, a collection of photo already posted in other sites bound together with a vague concept. I mean again, we’re here (sorry I’m here) to get some feedback on our photostories, not our PHOTOS. Why not nuke’em if we feel they’re not consistent at the beginning… I said I don’t see any reason of nuking the single photos, In fact I do, but only taken WITHIN a project : like a photo which for instance is too redundant with another or which simply doesn’t fit the mood of the project : [i]do yourzelf a plizure, Strangelove ze red putton, heil[/i]..errrh... 7- Try to keep this thread alive. Sid, Peter, Alain : any input?
20-11-2007
180 post(s)
Thank you, Luko. I felt sure there was a bit more to your thinking/reticence than was stated in your profile. And drawing you out was clearly part of my intent. You know, it’s a bit like those second marriages one hears about: a fellow makes a bad first marriage, marries a woman much like his mother with all the same dynamics and traumas. He divorces. He finds another, somewhat younger woman thinking “She’s the ONE!”, but guess what – she turns out to be No.1 in sheep’s clothing. So where am I going with this – well in our effort to be so different from that “other” site, do we not run the risk of ending up with a TE with a grey background? The key to understanding that risk is one little word: “behavior.” TWO KINDS OF BEHAVIOR: We’re all human beings here, we mean well, we are optimistic but we are also behaviorally determined by past routines and experiences. What I was alluding to in my rambling first missive was two kinds of behavior we have inherited and which still lodge deep in our DNA: the POSTING behavior and the COMMENTING behavior. 1. Posting behavior That one’s easy – we are conditioned to going “with our best foot forward”, uploading pics with individual impact, a little fizz, a touch of night time poetry in Hanoi, you know what I mean… Often if it’s a choice between choosing a pic that, though individually a little weak, a touch bland even, but that is absolutely in line with our “story” or a more spectacular one, well, it’s not an easy choice and, being human, we err, my friends, we err… 2. Commenting behavior Now this is the proverbial “can of worms”, as it touches on a kaleidoscope of reflexes, impulses, false logic and everything in between. We cannot help being “moved” by a great pic, that’s in our bruised and battered TE genes. We are as children before beauty, and by God we know it when we see it. It’s what I call the “Fireworks” reflex, the tendency to “Ooh and Ahh!” The problem with that is in the new context of this potentially amazing site, we are being asked to judge a pic first and foremost in terms of its appropriateness for the given theme, and even more difficult, how it links up with the one before in terms of the narrative. So far I see very little evidence that we have caught on to this – it’s a tric too far for us old dogs ;o))) A CONFESSION: If confession is the favorite music of paranoiacs ;o), then I would like to use myself as an illustration of the pitfalls we face here as we set off bravely on this new path. I have nearly completed my first theme “Vietnam Noir”, and when I look over it now, I see a sad and disparate collection of old hits from TE, strung together somehow in the hope that they will tell a story. Fat chance. If you want to see a good example of how NOT to proceed, take a quick glance at the 9 pics on display. My second theme “Shinjuku Nights” is far more serious, purposefully designed as a theme, and still under construction (I have one more “night” to shoot this Thursday with Mrs F and my 85 yr old father-in-law in tow ;o) And yet so far the interest in that series has been a little disappointing, especially the first pic which I feel isn't "understood" somehow. But I will persevere as this is definitely more in line with the ideals of the site. Sorry for the length of this thing. I miss writing my “articles” you know… (not "everything" about TE was bad, eh? edited by Furachan on 20/11/2007 edited by Furachan on 20/11/2007
20-11-2007
290 post(s)
hello all ok i have read a little this topic some idea seem to be good, but also need to think that some change can be done easy, other would be maybe more complicate because should write and program. from now i cant reply exactly, because i am not in Paris, and for now i dont have a good connection in Thailand, i will have it later when i will stay in my studio. I wait to see what other admin will say about this topic. give us time to see how some request can be change easy, and how other can be maybe impossible. i agree that we have to think and work to make this site attractive, just give us time to think about and work on it edited by flydragon on 20/11/2007
22-11-2007
111 post(s)
To have a story to show you have to go and shoot a story. A project is born before the shooting, it usually doesnt come about after from a collection of different photos. I think thats the problem with many umbrella "projects". But let's give it some time. Who here is in the process of shooting a long term project or getting ready to do so? As far as commenting on projects I will not do so until a project is complete. I would also wish others wouldnt until my projects are complete. Contxt is everything, and how can we know the whole context until we see it? For that reason commenting on a project that may not be even half done is not fair. For example I did critique Francis' Vietnam Noir project in the critique of his last upload. Which brings me to a technical request. Can we do it so that when we finish a project we can click some box which will then take the project into a seperate gallery where only completed projects are shown? It would enhance our abilities to see what is done because there are so many projects running now that its hard to find the finished ones. As far as critiquing a project. For me its about a unity of style and subject matter with a sequence that makes sense from 1st to last photo. An example of a very good one is Yan's on the leppers. Its a tight subject matter instead of a nebulous one and done in a cohesive way. Theres a flow, its comprehensive and interesting. Some projects are IMO impaired by too much variation in something as simple as postprocessing (colors along siode b/ws and sepia).
22-11-2007
89 post(s)
[quote=Luko]part 2 : Sid, Peter, Alain : any input?[/quote] thanks for asking but no, not really. I haven't been around this site to be able to form an opinion or suggestions, but realized that for the most part the demands are way beyond my abilities, I have enough difficulty getting one photo I am not ashamed off let alone a whole story, but that's my problem, no the site problem. As Gal points out forming a concise opinion on a project is much more challenging, I would even say that just like with pretty much anything else it requires a practise and whole lot of effort and time. It would probably take me an evening to put on paper something that makes sense. I also don't exactly follow what am I suppose critique (that's probably because the lack of understanind on my part), but I see one photo in the project, projects that are started but not finished, perhaps others that are finished but I don't know they are finished? Help me out here but do you ever remember buying a book with chapter 3, 7 and 9 with nice ending but no intro? One thing I would suggest is to nuke the nukes or any other forms of awards, don't care if you call them nukes, points, poison pills or carrots, they are all the same. Peter
22-11-2007
89 post(s)
Hey Gal, I very much would love to part of this site and my lack of participation is not because a lack of desire, but mostly at this point because of lack of time, hopefully this will change shortly. I believe this site maybe be a great place for many of us, and a welcoming group of folks I am already familiar with is definetely one of the very important reasons why I would like to be here. I am hoping to be able to be more active in not too distant future, if not uploading then at least offering my thoughts on projects by others. Suggestions for project: 1) perhaps have them available to the public once they are completed but with some flexibility, for example project is uploaded with understanding of being completed, however down the road photographer realizes there is something else to add, so there would be an option for that 2) perhaps having no max limit to photos in the project, I am just not sure that the project which was meant to have 25 photos will end up only with 20 3) once the photos are uploaded in the projects the author will not be able to delete them (hate seeing those wasted critiques disappear), however there could be an option to somehow allow the photographer to change the photos in the project once he/she realizes it shuldn't be there by either having a folder or something, the photos would still be there but on a side with a reason given why they aren't part of the project anymore. Not sure you know what I mean here, just trying to marry the ability of the author to make changes with the respect for the effort put on by the critiquers. Agree with getting rid off all the nukes, gallons, half gallons etc etc. Keeping the quality of the website may be a challenge, and a difficult one for many reasons, perhaps offer the option of clicking invisible "nuke" which could trigger a message to admin or something and let them decide if this sunset, smiling kid or blurry leg should stay. I am also wondering about restrictions on type of photography, is all welcome and let's make it a melting pot for everything but a kitchen sink, not a problem so far, but for some reason I am thinking if this place is to be for like minded photographers perhaps specializing in certain aspects of photography may not be such a bad thing. btw, for the most part the system doesn't allow me to post anything even though I am logged in, I can't just reply but can reply with quotes. edited by Homerhomer on 22/11/2007
22-11-2007
89 post(s)
[quote=Galeota]Hey, Peter, welcome aboard:buddies: 1) I'm not sure I understand you. If the project is made available to the public only when it's completed, then why posting a photo per day/week/month ? . Gal[/quote] I wasn't aware of the daily or whatever restrictions, I am not sure even in what way time restrictions would help projects, the two IMO don't mix together very well. Peter
27-11-2007
3 post(s)
As long as this is a new site and still open to the opinions of its members, I'd like to put in my two cents and echo what some have already said: The ratings system doesn't appeal to me at all, but worse still, we can't disable it! Can we at least have the option of turning off the ratings? Not to start out whining... I'm thrilled that some people put the effort into developing this new site for us all.
12-12-2007
33 post(s)
Hi Luko and fellow members .. I have been trying to keep up with the threads and posts on this site whenever I get the time to do it. the past couple of months have been very hectic for me - just got back home day before yesterday, was out for attending an academic conference and then went traveling from there.... this site's agenda is a challenging one ..need more time and patience to work and get into the zone...have been shooting very little of late... :-( you all are just terrific photographers...just moves me to see the level of engagement and thoughts involved all around ...