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30-08-2009
48 post(s)
I just got an email from Mr Jim Mortram announcing the deletion of one of his photographs because of my critique. The critique is gone (Mr Mortram deleted photograph and critique), hence you’ll never have the occasion to read it, but I’ll post here the mail he sent me, since it appears to me revealing of the explicit lack of self critiquing disease some members are going through.. You won’t be able to read my initial words to judge by yourself, but let me say one or two things about it: - Whoever is systematically feeling insulted whenever he receives a bad or, let’s say, less glorious critique on his work, better pack his all collection of f* pics and GO AWAY. This is no “restaurants du coeur” (for French speakers). - You gather two or three pics and think you’ve got a project going on. Ok, good! You put them online, HENCE you expect heterogeneous reactions BECAUSE we are all (God Thanks!) different. Some will praise it, others won’t, - Questioning is ALLOWED! Feeling insulted because someone asks for complementary information seems immature to me. Associating questioning with arrogance is…dictatorial. - I am a bit tired of writing critiques/comments that end up in the garbage bin, deleted by ever changing characters (Francis, if you read me…). If this continues, I’ll just stop writing any critique on these fellow’s photographs (you don’t need my critiques? Please announce yourself and you’ll spare your time and mine). For the record, I’ll leave you hereafter the brilliant words of Mr Mortram because, apparently, he wasn’t able to answer directly and publicly to my comment, which questioned the authorization (without any personal moral critique) of posting on the Internet the portraits of persons suffering from mental health diseases: 1/2....
30-08-2009
48 post(s)
2/2 [i]“Hi, as I cannot leave comments on my own photos to reply to your comment... I'm writing to you here to ask you to kindly remove it please. In fact I am deleting the image I am so angry with your assumptions... I would much have preferred you had written to me privately about your assumptions... as the public comments are for talking of photos... and had you read my profile your questions would have been answered. Firstly... my image was posted twice because of a bug with the site.. its happened so many times I have lost count... Secondly... Was I allowed?.. of COURSE!!!... did I seek permission? Of course!!! both collectively and individually... have I made shots with more eye contact OF COURSE!!!... I have many shots but to be honest, its takes SO long to go through the process of uploading to Photoholik I post them elsewhere as its a chore to do so here!... how do I get permission?... Model release forms... and I spend longer talking with and helping with the ART and people in the group... than I do making photos... the gentleman in the photo you left your comment on is a GOOD friend and EVERYONE I photograph with I view totally as a collaboration... as do they. I am well versed in the legal procedures of making and publishing images... and I have a sense of morality and community... thats why I make the photographs I do. As for context... I would say you have decided to impose your own on these images without determining first the actual context... as had you asked me first you would find that all of your assumptions are totally incorrect... and offensive, really offensive to me... Thirdly... the comment you left... saying I have no concern is extremely offensive to me... so I'm deleting your comment and the photo as I am SO angry at A. You did not contact me privately first... and B. I am sick and tired of the rude arrogant attitude of people on this site... how dare you leave a comment assuming such negativity!!!... I work in Mental Health too... I work a 70 hour week and I volunteer at the Arts and Minds group as well as three other groups... all in my own free time... and everyone I photograph is a friend... all bring in photos to show me, I am running a photography course for them all... all are peers both socially, artistically and as human beings... I don't make pictures for ego... I make them to share other peoples stories... I really am saddened by your comments. » [/i]
30-08-2009
23 post(s)
How wonderfully well mannered you are to post a private response in public. I associate assumption with stupidity... you left a comment that questioned my care and concern and that has nothing to do with the PHOTOGRAPH. You did not leave a critique of the photograph... you questioned my integrity... so if you did not appreciate my response... grow up. If you want to do this in public... fine. Personally I find all this very, very boring.
30-08-2009
48 post(s)
[i][b]Personally I find all this very, very boring.[/b][/i] No you do not. If this was that boring you wouldn't even bother answering me. The fact is you didn't appreciate I originally questioned your authority to post publicly photographs of people suffering from mental health diseases. The original question, which is perfectly legitimate is: did you get their own individual approval? Did you get their families approval in the cases some were lacking the capacity of discernement? The approvement you eventually got was intended to fight discrimination and stigma only, or were the subjects also ok that you post it on the Internet in sites like PH? Even if any of these was obvious, why would you feel offended by my questioning? My concern for these people is legitimate and if it demands an answer, either you have something to tell me, either you do not. You should be pleased that someone cares about their privacy. Do you feel uncomfortable about it, in any way? Your problem, but don't question my right to answer. Do not put yourself forward as a moral victim of intrusive accusations. No one is accusing. One is questioning, and that's part of life whenever we reveal ourself to public. Gal edited by galeota on 30/08/2009 edited by galeota on 30/08/2009 edited by galeota on 30/08/2009
30-08-2009
23 post(s)
Yes I do... a PRIVATE mail... is a PRIVATE mail... if you think you can post in public a private message to you without consent you have no knowledge of law... and secondly... its just flat out RUDE to do so... No one at the group is unable to provide their own consent for consent. All have. All I collaborate WITH and if you had read my profile you would know this already. I work WITH the group and several others to document the group and all the individuals and activities and to offer my support within the groups too... all are as involved with the project as I am... WE do it together. As for what offended me... it was YOU saying that I had a lack of care and concern!!!... that is an offensive statement... and nothing to do with the photograph. I have approvement, permission and the support of the group... all its members and the group leaders to document the group and all its activities... they all know I post my photographs... all have my contact and details... how could anyone think I would make such images without?... did you really think I just walked in and made these shots?????? and YES this is boring for me... so stop being so arrogant as to assume you know how I think!!! I post to talk about PHOTOGRAPHS... not to defend my integrity to total strangers. To the admin of this site... I am sick to death of this... I want OFF the site, please email me... delete all my work... delete all these tiresome conversations...I was only here to talk about photography... this is TOO much like a playground for my taste... too much ego flying around and way too many events such as this... and I have to stress... never on ANY site I have ever posted has anyone questioned my total respect and care, concern and respect for all of my subjects.
30-08-2009
48 post(s)
Mr Mortram, It is useless to call out desperatly for the admin to delete your work. Take your responsabilities in your own suicidal acts and delete yourself out of the site if that's your will. The lack of self questioning is revealing of your incapacity to do a hara kiri on your own, without calling more attention than that. Now, regarding our small business, the fact you're incapable to accept one makes a simple question about a photograph (because talk about PHOTOGRAPHS, following your standards, must be about post processing I guess????), you have until know called me rude, arrogant , offensive, boring. As a form of politeness, I always try to put myself on the same level as the persons I'm talking to, and that's why I'll politely retire from this discussion with my best farewell regards: [u][b]f* you![/b][/u] Best Gal
30-08-2009
23 post(s)
It was you that questioned my respect for the people I work and collaborate with... if you can't handle what you dish out... don't dish it out. Your comment was not referring to my photography... it was directly aimed at my 'lack of concern' to use your own words... if you are too arrogant as to see why this may have caused offence, or you posting private messages in public is like a child telling tales out of school... I'm not calling out desperately... I do not lack in self questioning... I just have a great and profound dislike of pedantic, loud mouthed, insulting, ego fueled, assumptive people like you. and RE your closing epithet... classy... really classy and a fine example of why I am leaving this site. edited by J A Mortram on 30/08/2009
31-08-2009
163 post(s)
[quote=J A Mortram]...I want OFF the site...[/quote] Account closed. :twitch:
02-09-2009
137 post(s)
I'll be honest, I'm not so sure what was wrong with JA's response. So, there seems to have been an assumption against someones integrity, why shouldn't that discussion be held in private? Whether you like the photos or not, why are we continually discussing matters that have nothing to do with the photographs in question? It seems a shame to look so far for likeminded people only to find those that make a mission of miscommunication. :dunno:
02-09-2009
48 post(s)
[quote=prezntime] why shouldn't that discussion be held in private? Whether you like the photos or not, why are we continually discussing matters that have nothing to do with the photographs in question? [/quote] Mr Mortram sent me a private mail only because he apparentely couldn't leave comments on his own photos (system bug), it is written in his own message, first sentence. That means to me he would have answered publicly if he had been able to, hence I gave him a hand. I do not intend to go through further explanations on this. Since my original message is gone, what you call "assumption against someones integrity" cannot be proved otherwise. But there is someone else on the site who read my message and didn't interpret it as so, which comforts me in a certain sense. As far as discussions about photographs, I personally think its is rather limited and narrow minded to talk only about technicalities, post processing and composition. A photograph is revealing of a context, a project is revealing of intentions, circumstances, heterogeneous references, and it seems to me enrichening to be able to discuss on all these issues. Questioning is legitimate. Associating questioning with "assumption against someone integrity" is completely out of proportion. Perhaps if Mr Mortram hadn't immediately deleted my comment and his photographs, you could have judged better by yourself whether my words were offensive or not (that's one more reason why these events should remain public - so that other members of a community can express their opinion with the knowledge of ALL the facts). We obviously have a different interpretation of what miscommunication means. Gal
04-09-2009
137 post(s)
Sorry this took a little while, I've been distracted. As far as miscommunication goes...Gal, you said that you only inteneded to ask a question, and Mr. Mortram said that he found that question insulting...Unless, you Gal, meant that question to be offensive, then this affair appears to be a miscommunication. I hope we don't have differing interpretations of the meaning of miscommunication, because it appears to be just that to me. Aside from that, I believe Mr. Mortram took an unusual amount of flak here on PH and I can't quite pinpoint why. Maybe he was sensitive, but aren't we all at different points of our lives? Maybe he deleted photographs, but...they're his photos and he has every right to remove them from the net at any point. As for your statement that you wish not to waste your words on images that will soon be deleted (I know I'm paraphrasing), what does it matter? Where do you really think those words will end up? Why is it that your words hold so much importance, but the wishes of the photographer seem to be relegated to the unnecessary? Maybe that wasn't the outcome that you intended, but weren't those words you wrote for the photographer...intended to give some feedback about that individuals progress? I'm aware that you do not consider these photographers (us) artists (as implied in a previous thread), but some of us buy into that title and can feel a little agitated when someone drops in and questions our aptitude, moral intention and judgement. That said, I do appreciate your opinion and your ability to articulate your point, but I only wish for you to see both sides of the coin before you call heads. :werd:
04-09-2009
48 post(s)
When I talked about different interpretations of miscommunication, I wasn’t referring to the discussion between Mr Mortram and me, but to the fact you suggested some in PH “make a mission of miscommunication”. It seemed it was a critique addressed to me among others, hence my observation. I haven’t written many comments in the last months, unfortunately I’d say, having been overwhelmed by an important amount of work, lack of time and also lack of motivation for photography. But I do keep browsing the site to look at the photographs posted by other members, and I do value the work of Mr Mortram as a photographer, from the photos I was able to see. This is to say I did not participate in any circumstance to the amount of flak you say Mr Mortram might have taken on PH. I do not act in group and do not take profit from public mobs to sustain accusations against a member of a community. I could have picked any of his excellent photographs (he had a certain amount online) and covered it with praise. Yet I picked one within one of his most sensitive projects, one that made references and questions arise in me to write a comment which was misinterpreted. Critiquing, as far as I see it and apart from technical observations, is trying to understand why you suddenly felt like expressing a point of view when looking at a particular photograph. When trying to understand, you’re talking to the photographer as well as to yourself. Now, what I mean as a loss when my words are deleted because the photograph is removed doesn’t refer to the brilliance of what I have written. It refers to my engagement as a participant. My time that could have been used to the profit of another instead of spent with an ectoplasm. What if you’re talking to someone in real life who is absolutely not paying attention to what you’re saying, or simply turns around and goes away while you’re talking? It is not the words you’ve said, but the attitude in the reception of those words that matter. Besides, how can you determine the wishes of the photographer without exchanging with him, or at least listening how he describes his own photography? Do you think photographs speak for themselves? Well, I don’t. There are two types of deletion. “Francis style” in his search of harmonious balance (and I can tell you I could almost write a book with the comments I left in Francis photographs – I mean, I have been exchanging critiques with him since 2004 or so)!! That is extremely using on the long term, even though I love the man and grew up to admire his inputs through the years. At some point I just ask myself “what for”? Then the way Mr Mortram chose to act: delete photograph and comment, and yet send me a mail demanding for explanations about what he previously deleted. What is the purpose of expressing one’s opinion if it ends up vanished in the air? Why should we care to post if it isn’t to arise praises but also debates, questioning, opinions, and polemics? Should PH be just another PBase, Flickr or whatever with rows of similar comments in the style of “Bravo! Excellentissimo! Wonderful pic”? And then, for all those who post exactly the same photographs simultaneously on three or four different websites; if you expect the same type of feedback on all the sites you’re posting, why bother after all? Just to increase visibility? I think we could all take profit from some humility. Of course I should look at both sides of the coin; everyone else should also do or try to do so. That said, if each time we express a public disagreement it appears as “calling heads”, we’ll just end up comfortably numb in silence. Gal
04-09-2009
89 post(s)
[quote=galeota] What is the purpose of expressing one’s opinion if it ends up vanished in the air? Why should we care to post if it isn’t to arise praises but also debates, questioning, opinions, and polemics? Should PH be just another PBase, Flickr or whatever with rows of similar comments in the style of “Bravo! Excellentissimo! Wonderful pic”? And then, for all those who post exactly the same photographs simultaneously on three or four different websites; if you expect the same type of feedback on all the sites you’re posting, why bother after all? Just to increase visibility? [/quote] :good: On another note, notwithstanting the exchange between the two of you, which definetely took a wrong turn, not having Jim's photographs here is a loss for this site, however with his inability to accept all critiques at face value really prohibitits him from participation on sites like this one, and his departure would have been just a matter of time.
02-10-2009
180 post(s)
Well what do I know after trying to keep this thing animated for two bloody years now... all in vain it seems. Look. Was Jim super sensitive about his work in the context of the subjects he was covering? Yes... sometimes. Was he brutally insulted by G previously to the point where he felt like leaving? Yes. And THAT particular problem was dealt with. The exchange with my good friend Gal was far more unfortunate, bordering on tragic. Let me tell you why. Here there was an inevitable collision course between two fiercely honest men who didn't yet know each other and now never will. On the one hand there was Jim Mortram a peerless addition to this moribond (yes!) site - precisely the kind of photog we want on here - exploring serious issues with great sensitivity and control of light - shooting the old fashion way. On the other hand there was Gal who is also fiercely honest and moral and, not really knowing Jim from Adam (excuse the pun, ex TE'ers...), automatically questioned the man's right to publish such intimate pics of the unfortunate, of those who suffer in that way. Had both men known each other a bit, none of this would have happened. As it happens we have lost an extremely valuable member and (I have to say this) one who actually CONTRIBUTED pictures to the site, and all for nothing. It is another nail in our coffin. Some watching from the wings are rejoicing, literally drooling in alcoholic stupor as they read all this. Me? It just makes me sad. Two good men on a collision course. Tragic I say.