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10-07-2009
89 post(s)
Something that I would like to toss up for discussion, perhaps I am going to sound like a broken record but I am beginning to see the trend with only glowing comments posted on the photos. I am guilthy as charged, purposely I guess, since I have been scolded couple of times after typing negative comments, for the fear of driving folks away from an already fragile (while recently increased) volume, I am writing only comments on photos I like. With others following the same trend I would like to know the reasons, are we really that good and we have no bad photos here, are the weaker images left to silence and that's suppose to indicate the sub-par quality, are we into feeding each other's self esteeme so popular on sites like TE? Some of my TE friends who didn't mind kicking it up a notch over there, are like easter bunnies on PH (that's also directed to me, no intent to offend anyone ) Gather we mellow down with age? :)
10-07-2009
142 post(s)
Well... a few things might explain this and that. PH level is probably better than TE on average, I believe few people could go against this assumption. Hence photos by themselves can hardly be beaten to death technically OR only when they do not fit into the project flow... at least that's what I still understand from PH goal. Problem is that apart from a few people (NOT guilty, me) nobody uploads photopacks which I think would be better suited for a consistent critic of photos as a part of a whole. I think Projects could be criticized more acutely (thanks to whoever comment projects or photopacks thoroughly : steve, chris, animesh...).. on the other side George, APPROPRIATELY commented a project from a member who decided now to remove all of his photos. I am 100% supporting his comment, but someone decided he was only there to get praises... Personally I don't have enough time on my own to write the critics or even post photos as I would like to, hence I am focusing firts on the photos that spring to my eyes, mostly favorites, sometimes disappointments.
10-07-2009
89 post(s)
[quote=Luko]Well... a few things might explain this and that. PH level is probably better than TE on average, I believe few people could go against this assumption. Hence photos by themselves can hardly be beaten to death technically OR only when they do not fit into the project flow... at least that's what I still understand from PH goal. Problem is that apart from a few people (NOT guilty, me) nobody uploads photopacks which I think would be better suited for a consistent critic of photos as a part of a whole. .[/quote] No doubt on average the quality is better, hence one could think the expectations could be much higher not only from the uploaded images point of view but also the critics (although again I would have to admit that I became one-liner queen). The goal of the site has probably somewhat shifted, for better or for worse, and it's as much project as it is a single photo venue. [quote=Luko] ...).. on the other side George, APPROPRIATELY commented a project from a member who decided now to remove all of his photos. I am 100% supporting his comment, but someone decided he was only there to get praises... .[/quote] Don't know the particulars of the situation you mention but it's an issue for me, not trying to tell anyone how and why they should participate here, but was hoping that, since we are still a very small group, we can get past back slapping, and not be afraid of some ass slapping ;-) :king2: edited by Homerhomer on 10/07/2009
11-07-2009
post(s)
Hello everybody, Coming from TE, I find the level here extremely high... and that's good. That's might also be one of the reasons that leads members not to criticize harshly. PH is definitely another club and I feel that in my skin. Here, even if a picture is not that good, at least you can feel that the photographer did not upload it by chance. Every picture here (at least by what I have seen until now) deserves some respect. Nevertheless, and speaking for myself, the way I learnt most was by having my pictures criticized for changes. Constructive negative criticism is very welcome indeed, here and everywhere else. For my part, I would not hesitate to throw some nukes... for keeping the level of this excellent site and to avoid it becoming a TE. Concerning the projects, it's difficult to define its structure. What makes a project a project? The theme? The photographic stile? Both? Not easy to judge. "are we really that good and we have no bad photos here" To this I find that it's not important if we are good or bad or average. What is important is first, that we like what is being done here and second, that there is a purpose and an intention in what we do. And there is. No doubt about that. Good or bad art is always relative and subjective and there will never be a criterion or a rule or an answer for defining that. Important is that we defend on PH what is FOR US the meaning of good photography.
12-07-2009
89 post(s)
There you have it, I have done some soul searching and decided to put the nuke cup on one more time, and you Luko are raoring like a kitten-king once again with all these side arrows ;-), no more mister nice guy huh!! edited by Homerhomer on 12/07/2009
21-07-2009
180 post(s)
I think Peter put his finger on something here.l There is NO DOUBT whatsoever that we tend to be nice to each other here, or rather, as Luko puts it, that we tend to comment on pictures we like. This has led to a "reading between the lines" situation: look, any picture that's been up for North of 24 hours and received zero comments, well that should tell you something. It's almost a Japanese way of commenting by non-commenting - death by silence ;o) Certainly this has led to many deletions on my part, and many have been justified (I assumed, probably rightly, that the community was too polite to tell me how awful, or boring, or humdrum my shot was), so I did the right thng and made it disappear. Of course this whole polite nonsense isn't advancing any of us, is it ? I mean how do you grow from that...? Peter's remark could not have come at a better time, as recently there has been an influx of fairly like-minded folk moving here from TE, and with the increased traffic came a renewed round of backslapping among new arrivals, reassuring each other and encouraging each other, all very human and very understandable. I think on the contrary there is an opportunity for all of us here, and this includes veterans who joined back in November of 07, to sharpen their pencils and have at it. Let's not be afraid to say that a picture just doesn't cut the mustard, that it doesn't bring enough to the table, whether technically, emotionally or intellectually. Only in this way can we guarantee growth and the maintenance, hell, maybe even the creation of higher standards. edited by Furachan on 21/07/2009 edited by Furachan on 21/07/2009
21-07-2009
89 post(s)
Probably not justifiably but I am willing to take a credit ;-) for recent shift in how we critique each other, not withstanding our newest friend Simon Nuketon ;-). Things have gotten lively lately (not taking credit for that), although it sometimes feels like taking part in HOUR OF POWER HALLELUJAH !!!!!!!!! type of preachery ;-) and while some of the action comes with a baggage I am not too fond of I will take it over being dead as long as we don't let it slide too low. edited by Homerhomer on 21/07/2009
21-07-2009
180 post(s)
[quote=Homerhomer]Probably not justifiably but I am willing to take a credit ;-) for recent shift in how we critique each other, not withstanding our newest friend Simon Nuketon ;-). Things have gotten lively lately (not taking credit for that), although it sometimes feels like taking part in HOUR OF POWER HALLELUJAH !!!!!!!!! type of preachery ;-) and while some of the action comes with a baggage I am not too fond of I will take it over being dead as long as we don't let it slide too low. edited by Homerhomer on 21/07/2009[/quote] Mud wrestling before long, brother...;o) It is true, and no one can deny it, that things were too quiet here for a while. That is no longer the case, hee hee...
22-07-2009
89 post(s)
[quote=Furachan] Mud wrestling before long, ...[/quote] Mud wrestling in a trailer park, are we there yet? :(
22-07-2009
180 post(s)
I'm afraid we are... You'll have to translate some of it for me ;o) The rest is transparently clear.
27-07-2009
23 post(s)
I'm a huge fan of critique both negative and positive... and not so much a fan of ill manners : this comment was sufficient enough for me to drop this site for a few months... primarily as it only seems self serving for the poster. I don't need some arrogant hack assuming I shoot in anything other than full manual (I don't even use the LCD on the back of my D200 when using digital) I don't need someone telling me what I can and can't post and I don't post for positive praise. I make photographs because I have to - its part of me. As we are limited to a number of posts per day, a project may at first appearance take the form of a flow of similar images... but how about a little decent patience and wait for the other 20 or 30 images to round out and fully form the narrative?... most of my photo essays compromise of over 200 shots that I edit down to around 40. I don't need to 'ask' people what I should post... I KNOW what I should post... so assuming I post here to get advice is almost beyond belief for me... I champion intelligent appraisal of work and commend literate, educated discourse upon theme and tone of images... but in no way am I a fan of egos left to arbitrarily take pot shots at peoples work... also I'm really only posting this reply, not because it was upon my work... but I have noticed the same person adding such rude comments to other peoples works... and its just not warranted... you can have and display negative thought without having a verbal tantrum akin to a 4 year old not getting the toys they want in a shopping mall. I include the comment I received only as an example of how a critique should NOT be conducted. This attempt at sharing an opinion does nothing other than highlight the arrogance and rudeness of the poster... its without any merit in that it teaches nothing... I'd be more concerned with moderating childish loud mouths than anything on this site. Sort it out!. Not quite sure Jim, if we can call this 'a project' ? It looks more to me like a kind of a dumping bin where you can dump your ( basically the same !) photos into one place and let us decide which one is worthy of any praise (?). Well, this is an extremely popular style among hundreds of photo sites around, but ( thanks almighty) - not in here, in PH. You Jim, YOU are the one who decides which photo is the one that deserves an attention for it's ONLY you who is fully responsible for your works. On the other sites you can ask flatteringly: Which one do you like better, folks", but on the respectful site this kind of a cuteness will raise few brows. Project is not about the same scene, the same people, and the same theme - shot several times in the row and then posted because you couldn't decide which one is 'THE" one to show. In my opinion - this starting photo is the only one that illustrates all what is in your note… The others are just to show us the technical capabilities of your camera. Several photos, one after another… WOW !!!
28-07-2009
180 post(s)
Jim: I just noticed with a great deal of sadness that you deleted the entire project - your first project. There was some fine stuff in there as I pointed out in my comments. Now I remember that comment you quote now though i can't remember who it was from - very harsh, yes, though only one person's view. I tried contacting you by email but you "contact" button didn't work - can you drop me a line sometime. You bring solid credentials to this site, a keen eye and even more a keen sensitivity for your environment, in the best photojournalist tradition. I look forward to lots more of your output. All the best, Francis
28-07-2009
23 post(s)
Cheers Francis. My only issue is with manners... all comments are valid... just, please people, have some politeness when sharing views... its free = )
08-08-2009
142 post(s)
Hey, I'm there in Seoul coming back from mind healing Vanuatu where I almost forgot was photography was : that's incredible how the pacific isles have on me the power on focusing on real life, not the pixel lived one. Having browsed the forum here and there, looks like a heatwave hit the site recently and someone's gone.. won't comment this part, though I will reply to you, Jim, as I shared the same opinion as the goner on your uploads. Even though I might [b]also[/b] sound harsh to you, this is my opinion I can argue as well as anybody, yourself included (FYI, in another site more than 15.000 members at the time I quit, I was considered as the best photo critique, probably one of the punchiest too). That said I do not have any hard feelings against you (I mean it), I simply think you didn't get the "culture" we 95% of us are coming from : this is not photonet nor pbase, chasing for glory. Bashing a photo or a project is allowed, the nuke icon is there to use it... what this site is first hand trying to do is to set projects, that would stand by itself like a story or a full coherent set of photos (cohesion is probably the magic touch one has to bring in, but we cannot define priorily though). You say : [i]"and not so much a fan of ill manners : this comment was sufficient enough for me to drop this site for a few months... primarily as it only seems self serving for the poster. I don't need some arrogant hack assuming I shoot in anything other than full manual (I don't even use the LCD on the back of my D200 when using digital)" [/i] Well, viewed from my point, I don't think you were good mannered too : 1- you were each day or so uploading a project of 4 to 6 photos without any explanation or whatsoever, breaking the implicit rules of an "average" of 1 photo upload per day. I personnally voiced for the upload of several photos at a time, I had to overcome the admins fear of having someone flooding the site with regular photopacks uploads and convince them that nobody well mannered would use this functionnality to upload every day... seems I was wrong. 2- I didn't read much of your critiquing skills before you left. It's a pity because if you are such a good eye and that you KNOW what you HAVE to post then it can be very beneficials for other members who still wonder... and you know a site is always a community where you get what you bring... on this last point Vanuatu melanesian or Kanak culture of sharing everything had me thinking recently. ...
08-08-2009
142 post(s)
... You said : "[i]I don't need to 'ask' people what I should post... I KNOW what I should post... so assuming I post here to get advice is almost beyond belief for me..." [/i] Jeeze, I'm afraid I haven't read it correctly ;) It happens I met one of the editors of one of the bigest stock photo agencies in my holidays as we happen to share the same hobby (not photo) scuba diving. He ranted to me against the some of the senior worlwide known photogs (some I knew from the older site we're coming from) and the lack of overview they sometimes have on the quality of their work. All opinions are good to take IMO. :) You said : [i] "but how about a little decent patience and wait for the other 20 or 30 images to round out and fully form the narrative?... most of my photo essays compromise of over 200 shots that I edit down to around 40. "[/i] I suppose you know the final edition of the 80 something images included in Frank's "The Americans" came from a stock of more than 20.000 photos. We all have our mammoths, an ongoing project that takes 10 years or more time, but the name of the game here is 20 photos or less. I think you should rather regard this iste as a helping hand rather than a showroom, there are plenty of paying showrooms on the Internet, we don't need one more, we need accurate and straightforward critics IMO. Like HCB said : photo only needs an eye and a finger, almost everybody has got to eyes and a full working hand, why not use it on the keyboard as well? I think you were wrong to delete your photos, and probably as arrogant as the initial post snubbing for a reply. you're on the Internet not in real life, Jim! this is a f****g GAME :woohoo: that said, I did not comment your Norwich project yet but I really love it! Do me favor, take what I write lightheartedly :buddies: Cheers Luko
08-08-2009
23 post(s)
I said I did not need to be talked down to like an imbecile by a rude, arrogant person who's work in no way did I have respect for... and more importantly... who's attitude to many people on this site was aggressive, out of context and self serving... his words were not 'advice'... and I don't believe I needed seek permission to choose the images that I wished to represent my way of seeing. Those comments were assumptive regarding my technique and obviously motivated by ego more than a sense of 'sharing ideas' or the advice of a peer. There were no thoughts on composition, no questions about context, no asking if I used P or A... or as the case always is, fully manual... nothing other than a rant... thats not a critique... thats just immature. I had specified that more shots were to come in that specific project... I was left the comment you refer to when that set had 5 images in it... not 20... not a finished project and I had stated so... so in my mind its really jumping the gun to attack the narrative of a project before its complete... its like reading page 1 of a book and dismissing it... its assumptive, arrogant and immature so that kind of 'advice' I can live without. Also, as I stressed before... I voiced the matter only when I became aware of the same attitude, again both misplaced and self serving upon other members that in no way deserved it... or who's work warranted it. Seriously, how can I be thought of as arrogant for deleting my own shots?!!!... I wanted to leave the site and requested my account be deleted... I'm here to look at work, post work and talk about photography - thats all. You say : "That said I do not have any hard feelings against you (I mean it), I simply think you didn't get the "culture" we 95% of us are coming from : this is not photonet nor pbase, chasing for glory. Bashing a photo or a project is allowed, the nuke icon is there to use it... ...I have stressed before... I am not here for any praise... I post images because this IS a photography site... I advocate critique... not 'bashing' and I'd be really pleased to see any evidence of some well worded, knowledgeable and intelligent critique... about the content of images!... anyone can quote a famous photographer... thats not a critique... and when I see images that I feel are outstanding, I comment. You say : "Well, viewed from my point, I don't think you were good mannered too : 1- you were each day or so uploading a project of 4 to 6 photos without any explanation or whatsoever, breaking the implicit rules of an "average" of 1 photo upload per day. 2- I didn't read much of your critiquing skills before you left. It's a pity because if you are such a good eye and that you KNOW what you HAVE to post then it can be very beneficials for other members who still wonder... and you know a site is always a community where you get what you bring... on this last point Vanuatu melanesian or Kanak culture of sharing everything had me thinking recently.!" I never said I have a good eye... I just believe I have the right to choose the images I want for projects and the reason I write little about the people in my images is to retain their privacy... I am in the middle of transcribing conversations with all my subjects and as I have stated before all projects will be updated when I have safely, using the subjects words, got a good description for each image. As for getting what you give... I have made many posts in the Forum and all about photography... sharing ideas and interesting sites that may be of use to other members... all too little or no reply... so I ask you... whats the point?... In no way do I regard this site as a showroom. I had absolutely no knowledge of a 'One shot per day'... I'd be more than happy not to post here at all... as I am so sick and tired of all this talk... and none of it about photography.
08-08-2009
180 post(s)
Jim, let me jump in here because i've already deleted a couple of shots that were going nowhere today and a third that's "shaky" ;o))) and I've got nothing better to do... I'm a veteran of the "other" site most of us crawled out of, towards the light... And Luko is a vey close friend, not just of myself but of any halfway intelligent people here. Please understand that Luko is one of the good guys. Not a bloody guru, not a Master or anything bizare like that, just a ruthlessly intelligent, talented and supremely knowedgeable guy when it comes to things photograph (and he LOVES your stuff so...put that under your hat). What Im saying is you really don't want to end up in an adversarial situation here, not with that particular person, trust me. He's the best friend, the best advisor you can ever hope for. It's just that he's French, superemely logical and he'll get right up in your face in a New York minute ;o) Now as to what I honestly think about this debate - no question but the individual who so offended you WAS offensive and for the most part, you read him right - the man has a tremendous gift for mayhem and getting under people's skins (creepy really). Luko will get "in your face", that is different ;o) Having said all that about your reading of this other guy being basically sound, you are perhaps a little too sensitive, too protective, if not of your work, my friend, then of your subjects. It'S a fine line I know, but think about that a bit. What's left of us here after that cyclone went through here, is a pretty decent group, really, pretty level headed, all lovers of photography a la Magnum, just like your good self. We are friends here, so why don't we loosen our neckties so to speak and relax a bit with each other, even if that means taking the p--ss once in a while. Let me reaffirm my delight at you having joined us, Jim. You are an asset, man, just the kind of serious shooter who adds heft and dignity to the site. Lastly as far as that "one a day keeps the doctor away" uploading thing, no such rule, sorry Luko. I do that myself (not counting those pesky deletions..) but many others upload 4 -5 or more pics at a time. I just don't get that one. So Luko, welcome back, man! PLEASE assume he kind of role here that we all know you are capable of and b) secretly all wish you would assume, and Jim, loosen up a bit because all that's left here now are serious people who respect your work but might want to pull your leg once in while, just for the hell of it. Now is that better? Francis edited by Furachan on 08/08/2009 edited by Furachan on 08/08/2009
08-08-2009
23 post(s)
One other thing... I snubbed no reply... I replied privately. As for real life V a game... manners are manners wherever you are... as far as I am concerned, 'bashing' critiques is as pointless and 'back slapping' ones... what about sensible, considered critiques?... in the above posts you say 'everyone being so nice & politeness is getting us no where...'... well, it is possible to express a negative critique, illuminate points about images without it falling into a personal critique... would it not be prescient to have the calm of thought to not 'bash' via assumptions or the ego driven motive and hypothesis of a critic?... I must stress... I have no problem with images being critiqued... the light used, the angle, composition... the setting, the scene, the moment... all the things relevant to photography... but to have arbitrary comments about trivia such as a border... or assuming that the camera did all the work... come on!... if that is the highest standards of critique here... then its really quite low. You say : 'Even though I might also sound harsh to you, this is my opinion I can argue as well as anybody, yourself included (FYI, in another site more than 15.000 members at the time I quit, I was considered as the best photo critique, probably one of the punchiest too).' .. it's so cool to see that your time with the Vanuatu melanesian & Kanak culture taught you so much about modesty. I joke of course.
08-08-2009
23 post(s)
I have to be protective of my subjects... they are real people... that I see all the time... its not from the hip random sniper action into faces and souls never seen again. My work... I'm not defensive of at all.. I really WANT critique... but about photos... not borders, or any trivia... just the photos... I value my peers... all of them... and the reason I joined this site when invited was because I was blown away with the range and ability of many of its members. I'm just here for the photography = ) I'm sure Luko is a good guy... and trust me, I love the French = )
08-08-2009
23 post(s)
and hehe... maybe I've been doing a fair bit of leg pulling myself ;) so all is cool with me = )