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11-02-2008
111 post(s)
Im a geek but I gave this some thought. I want to see if its possible to reconcile two extreme positions: fear of flooding on the admins' side vs the call for flexibility by Luko in uploading whole projects. Here is my proposal. 1. First split the site into [b]two levels[/b]. An upper level and a lower level. a. [b]Lower level[/b]: this is our personal level. Its sort of flickr/PBase type of thing where we can upload as many photos as we want. Be it a whole series or a hundred shots. It doesnt matter. b. [b]Upper level[/b]: This is the public level, its the level we see when we click on Gallery. 2. So once this is done here is how it works. I can for example upload all the photos of a project at one go. However nobody will see those photos unless I take one more step, and that is [taking an individual photo from all those uploaded to the [b]lower level[/b] and [b]promoting [/b]it to the [b]upper level[/b]. This is where we keep the [b]one photo per day quota[/b]. Now, how does this change anything? This is how. As I said nobody will see a photo only in the lower level in the galley. HOWEVER here is where I think this works. By clicking on the project link, other users will be able to see all the photos in both levels. The only catch is that they wont be able to comment on them unless that photo is promoted to the [b]upper level[/b]. I think this idea works to bridge this gap. There is no flooding but it allows us to see the whole project and to critique a photo within the context of an ENTIRE series. And thats the idea, isnt it? Because as things stand this is much closer to the TE style of presenting than it is to what Simon et al envisioned.
11-02-2008
4 post(s)
An interesting suggestion, Rafal, though I am not sure that I would want anyone to comment on my project before it is actually completed. Now that there's a way to reorganize individual shots, it seems fine to make changes, take one down, replace it with another. I like the idea of two levels and letting ourselves see the parts of a series below and upload accordingly... that would make the flow of the project smoother, and a great idea... is it actually implementable from the coding view? So, my 2 pennies, I take one, I leave one from your idea. sasa
11-02-2008
111 post(s)
Im gonna harp o this but i wiuld really luve if the admins made changing photos easier. 1 photo a day is ok for the upload but I would really think that if we were allowed to quietly change as many shots as we wanted it would raise the quality of this site. I guess I have a reason, as Im going to rework 2 completed projects, one I will expand upon and the other I will totally reshape along much better lines, and both I ant to change totally vis a vis the editing....but its gonna take me weeks to do that with this limit.
11-02-2008
142 post(s)
Right, Rafal. As i understand it, it still needs to upload everyday, which is the actual pain in the *ss. I don't see what changes for the member except that he has a private space where he can work his own stuff, though his publicly shown project still runs at the one shot per day pace, like the full painter palette in one hand and only small quantities of paint are allowed with the other hand. As for a result the painting achievement is still tedious in its full completion process. It doesn't fulfill my aim, Rafal, which is : 1-showing my project in one go, 2- looking at the members whole projects in one sight. The one upload per day pace is not appropriate to projects, that was my initial guess and after two months it's getting highly confirmed. Some members have time and a steady motivation, others not (me for example), while we were speaking about single photos on the other site, that was fine but now that we are dealing with complete projects it's a really a pain in the neck for some to follow the projects and to upload something continuously. Figures don't lie, roughly, there are less than 10 members who are actively participating and 10 other members who have claimed now or in the past that the functionnalities and the way they are implemented is not adequate to their needs.. the rest of the troops has gone AWOL. I still reckon the easiest way of doing only needs a low tech solution : 1- let them upload what they want, 2- booh first and spank buttnaked whoever doesn't want to play the game and exceeds a "one upload per day" pace in the middle term. No development needed, just some personnal engagement : you want to override the number rules, you're out, admins cut your uploading ability that's it, simple as that. once again it's a 5%/95% problem as I see it daily in my consulting work : people tend to focus on the 5% problems and bugger the 95% flow. If you really need some technical implementation : allow a 30 pics limit for a full month, no balance reports or whatsoever.
11-02-2008
33 post(s)
I think its more a question of uploading ‘good’ photographs that would ensure active participation from everyone, rather than anything else. It gets boring sometimes to see repetitions in trends and uploading photographs becoming an end-in-itself-exercise. The enthusiasm that is shown here is great, but I feel a lot more thought needs to be given into the uploads. I might gather some amount of flak for putting this viewpoint into the forum, but I thought I rather do it. I might be guilty of committing some of the things I just mentioned above, but I feel its getting to a point of no turning back. Having said all this, I also realise this site is still in its incubation stage.
11-02-2008
111 post(s)
Luko, the thing is that while in the lower level only a photo not visible in the gallery it IS visible when we click on the link to the project. Kind of like the draft area. So I coul upload all of my series to the lower level, and if someone clicked on the project link they would see all of it but couldnt critique the individual photos until they were promoted to the upper level. The upload is unlimited, only the promotion is limited. but unpromoted shots would still be visible with one extra click.
11-02-2008
49 post(s)
Interesting thoughts indeed... My first concern about this wide photo database as a lower level is the servor cost... Would that still be your wish if we had to charge some annual fee based on a capacity level to keep the server running this database? Just a question for right now only the admins bear the cost of the website... sorry for the back to reality hint...;-)
11-02-2008
142 post(s)
[quote=jinju] So I coul upload all of my series to the lower level, and if someone clicked on the project link they would see all of it but couldnt critique the individual photos until they were promoted to the upper level. The upload is unlimited, only the promotion is limited.[/quote] What's the interest of it? I agree there should be a "working" area but I'd rather see it as backyard than a first level : the images might be stored there for "maintenance" or questionning whether they fit in or not... but there are no interest in keeping them in the storage part ad vitam aeternam. [quote=eleparc]My first concern about this wide photo database as a lower level is the servor cost... [/quote] In the long term, you'll face [b][u]exactly[/u][/b] the same problem... I predict that the number of photos uploaded, either way you take the problem, would be very similar. Hence what you are saying is that you'll have to levy a fee, sooner or later.
11-02-2008
340 post(s)
You have already a "draft" area. Maybe we can think about an extension (more upload) of this possibility?
12-02-2008
111 post(s)
Luko, its a [b]compromise between two extremes[/b]: unlimited upload to the gallery vs 1 upload /day. I dont see what the difference is essentially between just uploading it straight up vs my way. Why do you want it uploaded in one go? For me because I want people to judge a photo within the context of a project, and thats not possible with just 1 upload per day. OTOH the admins dont want 20 photos uploaded all in one go to the gallery.It would make it a huge mess EVEN if people controlled themselves plus I really think it would take away from the community interaction thats important. I actually like the pace of the main gallery. I was away for almost a week for the Lunar New Year holiday and when I came back on Saturday my photo from Monday that I had uploaded was still on the main page. That means I wasnt lost for time to critique as many of the new shots as I liked. Had it been done the way you want it there would be 3 or 4 pages of photos to go through. Thats just too much, it would be like TE where photos fly by like crazy and you just get lost. Atleast on TE 98% od it us absolute garbage so you dont really miss out but here thats simply not so and you really feel like critiquing everything. So, my compromise allows us to: upload a whole project so it can be seen by everyone, it allows us to keep the main gallery tidy and sane, and it still keeps us coming back to the site regularly to upload a new shot and critique new shots and thereby it preserves the community interaction. For me thats important. I write a LOT of critiques. Some people dont qwrite any, look at Shailandra or a few others so for them this would be great. But not for people like me of Francis who really do take a lot of time to critique. [i][b]I agree there should be a "working" area but I'd rather see it as backyard than a first level : the images might be stored there for "maintenance" or questionning whether they fit in or not... but there are no interest in keeping them in the storage part ad vitam aeternam[/b].[/i] I dont see it as a working area, rather a waiting room if you will. You COULD treat it as you sa but for me I know that when I start uloading a project I mostly have it finished (although hell, Ill be rediong two projects and one will be changed 180 degrees in terms of its focus) so Im not really asking if a photo fits, I just want to show how a photo DOES fit in the sequence I have decided upon.
12-02-2008
115 post(s)
[quote=Siddhartha ]Having said all this, I also realize this site is still in its incubation stage.[/quote] Hi guys, it's a very interesting subject here, because YES this site is still in progress. I like the idea of two parts, but it's hard to implement. About the upload limitations, we can't fit everyone needs, but we can improve to make this site [i]different[/i] and friendly. The draft is a way to have "unpublished" pics, but the idea can be improved. About the limits, please note that there [i]must[/i] be one, to prevent from changing a pic every minute. Why ? Because in that case, you have no control on what is posted, I mean not for censorship but for preventing abuses (pornography, insults, etc). Saying that, keep on suggesting, we'll see the good direction to take ;) edited by janiko on 12/02/2008
12-02-2008
24 post(s)
In another similar tread i was speaking mainly for myself and said one shot a day is plenty for me, expecting that the mute majority would slap me in the face and disagree with me . Well the mute majority stayed mute and I only got slapped by 2 persons, the tread starter and someone who already said before wants to upload the whole smack in one go. Now my opinion stays unchanged for now, but I wanna move back a little to the middle. I maybe remember maybe half of the photographers here, but the ones I know have interesting things to show, I’m sure of that. And if the casting is working the other half has aswell, yet a lot of them show very few or nothing. That’s a problem, if that problem is caused by the one photo a day limit, or has other roots, there is a way to find out. Lets say that for a [i]2 month trial[/i] we are allowed to upload [i]2 whole projects of 20 photo’s (read, 1 each month).[/i] Only then we can find out if that is the sore spot in the first place and we also can find out if the site is still vivid enough to be called a community. I have absolutely no idea about webmastering and I don’t know if these kind of changes are difficult or easy ( I was already in the :woohoo: mode when a quicklink I made was working) but considering it a trial it is easy to go back if it’s not working. Jorrit
12-02-2008
142 post(s)
Rafal, My consultant daily work has taught me something at least. Compromise is always the worst solution : you have to decide one way or another trying to chase both always leads to a failure. The other thing that my consultant work has taught me is that people tend to resist to changes by all sorts of false excuses. [quote=jinju] Unlimited upload to the gallery vs 1 upload /day. I dont see what the difference is essentially between just uploading it straight up vs my way. Why do you want it uploaded in one go? For me because I want people to judge a photo within the context of a project, and thats not possible with just 1 upload per day. [/quote] That's the VERY POINT of it, Rafal !!!! What I am trying to explain there is that the "one shot per day" upload policy goes against the aim of this site, which is tadadaaaam : PROJECTS! When you're going at the movies, you're not going out every fifteen minutes and coming back everyday to follow the next fifteen minutes, right? read this : the problem is not about the NUMBER of photos you can upload in a period it's about the PACE. I'm more than alright for twenty pics in a month vs. one per day, but puleeeeeeze... in one go! [quote=jinju] OTOH the admins dont want 20 photos uploaded all in one go to the gallery.[/quote] But once again the admins have to face the contradiction. The only things I have read against the idea was : 1- it might overload the server. In ANY case the server will be overloaded, tell now what you will do when you'll have too many pics per day uploaded? huh? The problem this site is facing right now is a problem of enthusiasm, few people are posting, trying to limit the postings is like watching yourself die. 2- "It's good to comment single photos"... yeah... well, I have been called for a project site, not a single photo site, otherwise change the FAQs!
12-02-2008
142 post(s)
[quote=jinju] It would make it a huge mess EVEN if people controlled themselves plus I really think it would take away from the community interaction thats important. I actually like the pace of the main gallery. I was away for almost a week for the Lunar New Year holiday and when I came back on Saturday my photo from Monday that I had uploaded was still on the main page. That means I wasnt lost for time to critique as many of the new shots as I liked. Had it been done the way you want it there would be 3 or 4 pages of photos to go through. Thats just too much, it would be like TE where photos fly by like crazy and you just get lost. Atleast on TE 98% od it us absolute garbage so you dont really miss out but here thats simply not so and you really feel like critiquing everything..[/quote] Why should it be a mess, Rafal ? Why would uploading 30 photos in one go be more of a mess than uploading one photo per day in 30 days? To different uses, use different tools. The problem comes from the fact your are using Holik like you were using Trekearth : firstly you're one of the few to upload one pic per day, secondly you are systematically refering to photo galleries... but why should you use PHOTO galleries, the mainstreet of this site should be the PROJECT galleries, it's the same difference with an encyclopedia and a dictionnary, you don't search words in alphabetical order when you're using an encyclopedia. The logics of this site is that you should first look at what is happening in the projects, then browse the photos.. unfortunately as the photo upload process is not suited, little happens on the project page. [quote=jinju] I write a LOT of critiques. Some people dont qwrite any, look at Shailandra or a few others so for them this would be great. But not for people like me of Francis who really do take a lot of time to critique...[/quote] Once again, this is an upside down way to approach things. This site has to decide whether it focuses on PROJECTS or single PHOTOS. Shail has already stated he prefers to focus on projects that is why you won't see him writing frequently. [quote=jinju]I dont see it as a working area, rather a waiting room if you will. You COULD treat it as you sa but for me I know that when I start uloading a project I mostly have it finished (although hell, Ill be rediong two projects and one will be changed 180 degrees in terms of its focus) so Im not really asking if a photo fits, I just want to show how a photo DOES fit in the sequence I have decided upon.[/quote] .. until everybody says it doesn't... ;) ...(seriously if you're sure each time your photo fits : I'd recommend pbase... no need for comments.) Back to serious matters : I'm sorry, maybe I still miss something but I don't see what is the big improvement there! If that's only for your own perusal, why don't you use your Hard Disk... you store thousands of them if you want to and then upload them.. what I would like is uploading facilities to SHOW them whenever you like so that : 1- everybody can show the finished project. 2- I don't have to go back day after day to the upload thing to complete my project 3- I can see what the photographer had in mind, and therefore state whether his image flow impacted on me. I don't need MORE uploading in the end, I call for different ways....
13-02-2008
111 post(s)
Yeah I post a lot but I also critique a lot:) But thats only because I shoot a lot of projects and dont have any qualms about shooting ordinary everyday stuff (I think Im the only one to be showing stuf from weddings, doctor visits, family events, birthday parties which will be soon LOL, so ....:) the result is I have a lot of stories to show:) Plus a LOT of time at the computer....let's say I dont work at work:) But yes I agree that there is a problem with how we are uploading. Not being a conslutant I still think a compromise is best....