photoholik.com - Forum

Home » Suggestions » Part of the problem is projects. Messages in this topic - RSS
28/01/2009 04:36:45
prezntime
Posts 137

Go to Holik' profile
Recently I met Stephane and his lovely family here in the states...I was extremely happy and I wish I had more time to spend with them...I'm like a tortoise and don't get up to speed very fast, so I felt as though I didn't maximize my time with them by showing them the true US as I know it. That said, a conversation I had with Steph has me thinking. We discussed the rather limited participation here on PH, relatively compared to the talent present in name only. Many ideas were proposed, but I think the main reason sits with the confessed purpose of this site as a means to present projects. Most of us are fairly aware of one-hit-wonder photos posted on so many other sites, but I notice most participants here on PH are rather new to the project concept. My biggest concern is, projects don't take a few days to complete. Many photographers spend months, years even lifetimes working on a single theme or project. Yet, here on PH, there is a need to upload frequently to keep the site going. It's a conflict that I think most of us are having a bit of trouble with. So, we have to change our idea of what this site is in theory...I mean, are we a forum for presentation of finished ideas, or are we a station along the way to the developement of large scale and long term projects? For that matter, why can't we be both?
Everyone has their reasons for infrequent posting, I have many, but there needs to be a fire under our asses here...we need a jumpstart. I saw Luko posting a few realistic concerns in the forum, which resulted in a little acknowledgment and some frustration.
Time to get it going, we need some ideas...
We meaning PH as a whole if you don't mind me saying.
Read Report
28/01/2009 13:49:57
Stig
Posts 31

Go to Holik' profile
I have a little dilemma myself. I just got back from Vietnam. I spent about 3 weeks there. I had originally planned (through some of your advice) on spending time in various places and making up some projects. But I thought of the past three years where I travelled by myself and remembered how lonesome it can get (4 week trips not 1 week trips) so joined some friends and travelled up and down Vietnam finishing with a rather fine 7 day motorbike trip. As a result all I have are a bunch of pics, snapshots if you like, of various towns and cities that aren't linked together other than showing my blend of photoraphy. Do I post them? Shall I present them as a kind of travelouge or just upload them onto Assbook?
28/01/2009 14:51:02
Stig
Posts 31

Go to Holik' profile
Sod it! I'm just gonna upload the pics and see what happens!
29/01/2009 00:38:49
Xavis
Posts 75

Go to Holik' profile
I think that this is a good thinking. What Photoholik is and where we go? I can speak about me, and what have interested me on this web photo site, and I have to say that it was the idea to work by projets. The quality of the photographers too, but specialy this idea of projets. At the same time I think that it's not always easy to do projets. Some times is clear, as my travel projets, and when I begin to post the pictures I have a clear idea about the projet. Other time I have begin a projet, with not a clear idea, and the projet is built in the proces, as my projet: "to be with" and "moment by moment as a life".

What I want to say?....I want to say that the idea to work in projets is the "soul" of photoholik, and I think that it's important to keep this idea (I post single pictures on other places). But we have to feel free to do the projet. We can do a projet clear from the begining, or to do the experience of built the projet moment by moment...any way...I think that what is more difficult in PH is to keep the quality of the pictures on the projet. This is not easy. We can do 5 good pictures, but to do 15 or 20 on a same projet it's something complicated, but at the same time exiting, and a good exercice to improve photographie.

Hasta la vista,

Javier
29/01/2009 04:25:24
prezntime
Posts 137

Go to Holik' profile
No, I didn't mean to do away with projects of course, that is the basis of my participation as well. I meant to call into the question that only finished projects need be shown here on PH. I think that if whole finished projects were shown, that would negate the feedback received during the posting. I also think that the limit on quantities in projects should be eliminated. I think there should be more participation in the selection process...So, if a photo receives a lackluster reception, instead of deleting the shot it gets relegated to the draft position...that way, when the project is finalized with however many photos, we can go into the drafts and see what photos were rejected and what, if any, were the similarities of those rejected and accepted.
I guess I imagine something like this: My idea for this project is this...."blah, blah, blah". As the photos make it past the individual photographers criteria, the photo is posted on PH. Any individual comments are posted, and as the number of photos increase ideas are shared about what should go, what should stay and the order in which they most make sense. All the while there is critical feedback and a respectful back N' forth amongst the PH members.
This does happen already of course, but there seems to be hesitation which results in each person trying to post individual winners. the only person that I've heard refer to order within a project is Luko... The lack of participation in my opinion results from the fact that right now, this is just another photo sharing site. That may seem harsh, but it's not meant to be. We need our members to become inspired and take GOD DAMN risks...what is with all the comfort zone photography? Find a boundry and plunge over the side...we should be experimenting as much as possible and in the process exchanging ideas to further our photography. Otherwise, what was the point of starting this site if not to be surrounded by people who are as passionate about photography and willing to give true, insightful and critical feedback about photos and projects while expanding their art (sorry Gal)?

The above sounds alot like what everyone discussed as the site was set up, but it's not happening and people are wondering why so many photographers post one or two shots then leave...well, maybe that's because they are not ready. Lets make this a site where people are banging on the doors to participate...

Thank you,
Captain obvious.

Feedback Requested
29/01/2009 13:32:58
galeota
Posts 48

Go to Holik' profile
(sorry Gal)?


Hello,

I’m afraid I don’t really understand why you’d owe me apologies.

A few months ago, I intended to quit this site and asked all my threads to be deleted, which was partially done, hence I cannot find anymore several threads I started where I questioned exactly the same subjects you put forward here and now. Even though I privilege contacts much more than photography in itself, I do not need to be on the Internet to satisfy my needs. If I first joined the site, it was obviously for Simon and some others, with whom I’d been previously in contact, but also very enthusiastically for the project concept.

I did write, almost one year ago, that not much was being done to feed this concept, and that everyone was pretty much functioning following the “one shot” path, while uploading but also on commenting other’s work. That hasn’t changed much. The only difference today, is that we kind of fell into a routine. Basically, I thought that a project concept requires a discipline which doesn’t match with democracy or “freedom to the people” syndrome. Being able to progress in putting a project together requires also to know how to appreciate other’s projects, for instance by reading exhaustively constructive critiques. Go to the page of “project’s comments” and tell me what you read there and what you can learn from it… I’d say we all have a large margin to progress, but some basic rules should be changed to allow some of us to develop the capacity of analysis. Of course, for all those who adhere to the old view that “an image is worth a thousand words”, all critical analysis is merely useless bullsh*t. I do not share silent, pseudo intellectual interiorizations of knowledge. Helping members to put up a project doesn’t consist only in advising them on editing or the quality of their photographs, individually. It consists in going beyond grammar aspects, and broadening the range of analysis (rhythm, style, coherency, … many aspects we often pass by either by lack of time, or complete incapacity to write/think anything on them). My personal needs of control and being taken by the hand on these processes do not match the views of the site owners, who basically think that Time allows evolution and that our capacity to think by projects matures naturally.

...to be continued
29/01/2009 13:33:31
galeota
Posts 48

Go to Holik' profile
...Continues 2/2

None of my projects were completely finished, conceptually, before I started uploading them. I have one finished project and two ongoing, one in the long term (and even though I have several images to post, it has been months since I haven’t because I nourish doubts not on the photos, but on the path I want to take from here, proof that nothing was pre determined when I first started). I haven’t finished also my most recent project more or less for similar reasons: for each post I take some minutes to make a balance from the start and think if I shouldn’t slightly adjust my intentions for the next posts. Even though I regret today some of my uploads, I do not think the “deleting” mode is the best modus operandi. One thing I can say is that I have not, up to date, conducted my participation with the logic of individual winners. On the contrary, I am pretty much attentive to coherency, diversity and the story (this is a non mandatory personal bias – a story to tell) I have to share. Is that successful? It’s up to you AND me to say, which is the reason I can eventually consider a different editing, but rarely a deletion due to negative comments. It then surprises me that you refer to Luko as the only person you’ve heard referring to order within a project.

Anyway, I do not intend to repeat myself to the risk of annoying me and annoying others. I found one of the threads where I’d already expressed a few opinions on the subject (my name appears as “guest” since everything was deleted at one time as I’ve said before). You’ll find it here:

link


I remain curious for further responses to this new thread, though.

Cheers
Gal
29/01/2009 15:15:15
Homerhomer
Posts 89

Go to Holik' profile
galeota wrote:
...
I remain curious for further responses to this new thread, though.

Cheers
Gal


and the responses from the site owners are ulitimately what counts. In the past alot has been expressed in term of suggestion from people who enjoy this venue, not to critisize but to truly help it grow, however for the time being status quo seems to be a way to go.

Right now suggestions, from time to time, still keep coming, it may be a bit too late when they stop, I find this place a bit stagnant, lot's of monoloques on many fronts.....
29/01/2009 17:45:16
RandomCameraGuy
Posts 24

Go to Holik' profile
I like the projects format. However I think one of the problems is that the format isn't being stressed enough and that not many (and I am guilty of this too) are commenting on projects as a whole. I think that when I have more time to contribute I will focus more of my comments on finished projects.

I think we need a page with featured finished projects where we encourage members to comment on that project as a whole. This should rotate regularly...
29/01/2009 19:37:15
fixed
Posts 163

Go to Holik' profile
Part of the problem is projects.
Hummm, seems negative

Ok let me explain 2 things and half :

I'm confused because that's right, since few month nothing has changed.
Why :
- We encounter difficulties fix bugs (difficult to envisage evolutions while bugs remaining, again and again ... no comment ...),
- We encounter difficulties to meet us in order to discuss about new features, changes, evolutions ...
- Lack of encouragement from community, certainly (it might be nice not to have only requests or highlights on what is wrong or could be improved ... you know, something more friendly especially after a 'long' break ... see what I mean ... a kind of message which give you the envy to invest and give the best of yourself).
- This is personal but I prefer take my time on photography rather internet code (that's why I said you before, give us the envy to give you ...).

We should have a new developer for new features ...
Can I tell you that we had launched new features (and no feed back, something like good, wrong way, can be better or just thank you) especially the possibility to upload 10 photographs [1 mounth of developpement]).

We know, many, many things to do on this site in order to having something more interactive and less static, especially on the project part.

Take care

Arnaud
(we are not the owners, the owners are you. About me, I'm just a guy who take photograph and love sharing ideas 'about nothing' with people in this place, ... love the people here).
29/01/2009 20:45:40
galeota
Posts 48

Go to Holik' profile
fixed wrote:
..
Can I tell you that we had launched new features (and no feed back, something like good, wrong way, can be better or just thank you) especially the possibility to upload 10 photographs [1 mounth of developpement]).


True, Arnaud, that "thanks" is an unknown word in our (members) dictionary, and we should improve as far as our lack of politeness. But, improvements made these last months have been only cosmetics. You do not need a new developer, you already have plenty of talents in your team as far as programing, this is a great site already as is for its features. As per your (management team) feedback about member suggestions made in the past, it's near nihil, statuo quo. For instance, I still have to go through the primitive feature that requires to write 2 different messages to express a point of view because no more than X number of words are allowed per post...(even though that's also cosmetics).

You need a conceptual revolution to help us (everyone of us) go beyond our usual automatic daily post or critique. That's not an easy business and I personally wouldn't ever be too demanding as a member (that would be too easy). But, I still think you should focus your thoughts and exchanges on these issues if you want to go further and beyond what already is on offer on plenty of internet sites. We already had some private exchanges on this subject, and I have the strange feeling of repeating myself.

Now, I know you're going to hate me for this and that Simon will end up thinking I'm a complete moron, but the truth is I think the only two interesting features on this site are:

- the quality of the photographs
- the friendly people

Now, as for projects... what the hell are we talking about?

Gal
29/01/2009 22:05:14
Xavis
Posts 75

Go to Holik' profile
I' agree that we have to think about some main changes, to dynamice a little bit more this site. I think that what makes really interesting this site is at the same time the probleme...(I haven't said nothing new... Whaaaaa? ). To do projets is the main aim on this site, but it's not easy, and we have to spend time to do it, to think, and sometimes some nice picture can't be post because there are not perfect for the projet, and it can be a "frustation". Also, sometimes we would like to post just an easy picture that we love, and to have some comments about it, as in others photo site.

Finaly, what I want to say? I think that a web site works as in the real world... ????...Cool Smoke ...it means...usually, people needs to win something, to have an extra pleausure for what they do. More or less is, if you do something you needs to have a "symbolique price", or something that will push you to repeat what you do, one time, two times, three... (for exemple: we have talk about it here about points, as in Trekearth, it's very simply but it works quiet good). I don't think that in Holik we need this, I think that points it's a little too basic, for me it's clear, but we need something else. I think that the idea to do an exhibition it was really good, but at the same time I can imagine that it's not easy to realice.

What I can imagine to do, is for exemple, to do a kind of vote each month. A vote where each one makes a choice about the three (or ten) best projets closed of the last month, and to choice the three (or ten) best pictures of the last month. And after this choice, we show the best three projets and the best three pictures on a new main topics of the main page of the site. And at the end of the year, we can do the same for the best projet and the best picture. At the same time, I think that it can be a nice way to show quickly what is do it in our site, to a visitor who visit our site.

What do you think?


(Sorry for my english, I do the best,...if it's not clear I will write in French to explain better the idea)
29/01/2009 22:29:44
fixed
Posts 163

Go to Holik' profile
galeota wrote:


Now, as for projects... what the hell are we talking about?



Let me time to see my archive
29/01/2009 22:44:00
Homerhomer
Posts 89

Go to Holik' profile
Xavis wrote:



(Sorry for my english, I do the best,...if it's not clear I will write in French to explain better the idea)


writing this in french will make it perfectly unclear for many of us

Duhh

I like your ideasGood Posting

and I love all the smileys I can pickROFLMAO
29/01/2009 23:07:16
Xavis
Posts 75

Go to Holik' profile
And going further with this idea. The best of the year can be used to do the book of the year of Holik, in Blurb. It can be really nice to edit the "Holik awards"...Buddies
30/01/2009 04:15:51
prezntime
Posts 137

Go to Holik' profile
The "sorry Gal" was used when I uttered the word "art" in reference to our photography, only mild humor.
Arnaud, I did not mean for the title of this thread to be negative, in fact I wanted to call immediate attention to my point. I like projects, and this is why I joint PH. My point was the thought process that indicates a project can be thrown together from random pictures taken over a very short period of time and having only time or place as a connective. More accurately, those projects do have a place, but if that is all you are presenting, then things become boring quite fast. I can only speak for myself, but I have "projects that were shot in one day, in one place and with no (or very limited connective theme). Conversely, I have projects that where shot with a very definate theme and contained a little more substance pertaining to a singular concept. The former could be represented by my project "An evening with Animesh". Quite obvious what I was up to...Now, my current project is very different. I'm exploring a particular theme that has existed in my mind and found its way into alot of my photography. I'm not going to explain it in detail, because that trumps the effect that I'm searching for...the suspense of what I may be building is part of the fun of projects for me; atleast right now. I may find a more documentary approach at some point, a may find an even more abstract approach...only time will tell.
I guess my point is I'm trying to experiment with multiple photo projects, essays, themes...mashes...etc, I thought that was the point. By saying "maybe projects are the problem" I only wished to point out that people are having a tough time coming to terms with collections of photographs that they are trying to build a theme around. Also, I wished to point out that alot of photographers work on projects over months and years, which makes the day to day posting a bit more difficult. Which is why I want to see more of an educational aspect to this site...I don't want points or rewards (not that I'm all that against those ideas in theory), but I want real feedback. Setting up a means to present a project judged by the community as the best of the month, on the other hand, could be a nice compromise between critical feedback and a reward.

I gotta try to get to sleep early tonight, I look like I'm 80 years old...
Sleepy
30/01/2009 09:49:24
steph
Posts 340

Go to Holik' profile
Let me move this post to "suggestion"
30/01/2009 10:10:18
janiko
Posts 115

Go to Holik' profile
Hi folks...

A community website is a complex thing. You have only one format but many users and contributors, and plenty of ideas or points of view. I'm not sure that talking about projects is useful : as I've said elsewhere, it's only an editorial choice, to compell photographers to organize their work and to think about what they post. It's the only way we've found to try to improve the global quality of the site. Though, it's not really exact : the project is the soul of the site. It means that holik's photographers are not one-shot photographers. Photoholik was not created to be an easy-to-post site.

So, the project concept is not a problem (as to me) but... it's not grateful enough. I think we don't need to change something about the idea of projects, but we have to add something more. As everyone sees, there's an unused Exhibition link on our site. We must do something about this exhibition. Maybe there are many solutions : maybe voting for a project, maybe creating 1 monthly common project, creating "awards"... any idea is welcome, and there are some here. And why not combining those ideas, changing the main page, prohibiting photo comment, etc, etc ?

We (holik's founders) do really apologize because there was not real big improvement last year. We were blocked on the Exhibition, because we could not agree about what it can or it should be. Maybe the solution is to try and to test different solutions, but for that we need (active) feedback from holikers.

Arnaud said there are still some bugs : yes, but there will always be some bugs in computer programs. If we wait to correct all the bugs before going further, we will waiste a lot of time and energy. We should go further even everything is not perfect yet. We must try things and sometimes probably we'll go in a bad direction. Holikers ARE the site and should, in that case, tell us we are wrong.

grouphug

--
Sauf erreur de ma part, je ne me trompe jamais.
30/01/2009 10:22:30
steph
Posts 340

Go to Holik' profile
In order to resume, we have to put promote projects.
We have many ideas but I won't give it to you. I prefer to listen to your ideas first, please:
You said:
- put one project on the exhibition page
- give points to projects

anything else?
30/01/2009 10:44:56
ALSOM
Posts 123

Go to Holik' profile
fixed wrote:
Part of the problem is projects.
Can I tell you that we had launched new features (and no feed back, something like good, wrong way, can be better or just thank you) especially the possibility to upload 10 photographs [1 mounth of developpement]).


Arnaud,

I would love to provide you with feedbacks on new features, however it would be great to:
1) Announce them in more visible way
2) Easy access to the topic. From your link, the path looks like "Home -> Announcements". Well, from the main menu after clicking on "Home", there is no such "Announcements" forum", I guess the access is limited to modo/admin accounts, and therefore very hard for humble PH members to provide any feedbacks, something like "good, wrong way, can be better or just thank you" ...

My 2 cents.
Alain -
pages: 1 2 3
|

Home » Suggestions » Part of the problem is projects.